Culpeper shooting

[DocWalker]

Your right, we don't know either way do we. So why I'm I criticized for reserving judgement? I'm surprised that disappointment is even a consideration.

Please, please tell me how being asked for their license puts anyone in fear for their life (which is an assumption in itself).

I will not be swayed by the opinions of others w/o integrating them into my standards. Exchange of thoughts, opinions and ideas is the meat n' potatoes of this forum. Would you have me agree to simply get along? Does my character seem that weak that I might be influenced in that manner? I am embarrassed if that is what I project.

I assure you that my sincerity is not for let nor is my integrity.

Grape, I have always valued your options and integrity. With that being said I also don't think what happened between this lady and the LE that killed her was just "Can I see your license and registration ma'am". There had to be more to it than than that but without another person in the jeep, without a recording device or dash cam, without her being able to tell her option of what happen all we have is his version of events and I'm sure he woudln't say he threated her or hit her. He will paint himself as a saint just trying to help the mean lady.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

Wow.

I was last here when this shooting HAPPENED. I've just spent the better part of my DAY reading this entire thread.
I think the horse is dead... Almost.
Has the fat lady yet sung? Maybe.

I am certainly glad the incident in which I was involved didn't get this much attention.
I'm alive; not behind bars.
One BadGuy assumed dirt-temperature.

This whole "incident" probably took place in less than 10 seconds.
Mine was three seconds... Five at the outside.

I shot until my slide locked to the rear (7 rounds, 230 gr BALL ammo)
because that's how fast I COULD shoot. All rounds stayed in the BG.
I was lucky.

LEO shot 5 rounds, All stayed where they should have... Even had "rounds left over".
That shows amazing restraint under PRESSURE!
BZ on shot-placement. Glad they can't rake him over the coals for THAT!

61 PAGES of opinions... My head hurts.

The officer left blood and hair in the door of "the vehicle" driven by "the alleged perp".
Leaving blood and hair is always a painless process, right? <insert sarcasm here>.

USER: Please pass along my heartfelt thoughts to the LEO. BTDT. The sun will rise again tomorrow. Life goes on.

Doesn't everyone tresspass on the church grounds of which they are not members?
Was the LEO dispatched to the scene to investigate a possible violation or was he just looking for someone to harass?
<sarcasm>

I'm sure he woke up that morning planning to shoot the Sunday School LayLeader and Senior Choir Mistress... NOT!

 

[DocWalker]

Wow.

I was last here when this shooting HAPPENED. I've just spent the better part of my DAY reading this entire thread.
I think the horse is dead... Almost.
Has the fat lady yet sung? Maybe.

I am certainly glad the incident in which I was involved didn't get this much attention.
I'm alive; not behind bars.
One BadGuy assumed dirt-temperature.

This whole "incident" probably took place in less than 10 seconds.
Mine was three seconds... Five at the outside.

I shot until my slide locked to the rear (7 rounds, 230 gr BALL ammo)
because that's how fast I COULD shoot. All rounds stayed in the BG.
I was lucky.

LEO shot 5 rounds, All stayed where they should have... Even had "rounds left over".
That shows amazing restraint under PRESSURE!
BZ on shot-placement. Glad they can't rake him over the coals for THAT!

61 PAGES of opinions... My head hurts.

The officer left blood and hair in the door of "the vehicle" driven by "the alleged perp".
Leaving blood and hair is always a painless process, right? <insert sarcasm here>.

USER: Please pass along my heartfelt thoughts to the LEO. BTDT. The sun will rise again tomorrow. Life goes on.

Doesn't everyone tresspass on the church grounds of which they are not members?
Was the LEO dispatched to the scene to investigate a possible violation or was he just looking for someone to harass?
<sarcasm>

I'm sure he woke up that morning planning to shoot the Sunday School LayLeader and Senior Choir Mistress... NOT!

Keep drinking the koolaid, he will have his day in court and probably found not guilty due to not having anyone to say things didn't happen the way he said they did.

I have an idea lets get drones up so we can spot all those unarmed church ladies so it will be easier to take them out before they start trouble like parking. Didn't the goverment just pass a new law that lets them detain even American Citizens indefenetly.

He will get his day in court so relax, people have options just like butt holes let people vent before the revolution starts.

 

[Grapeshot]

Grape, I have always valued your options and integrity. With that being said I also don't think what happened between this lady and the LE that killed her was just "Can I see your license and registration ma'am". There had to be more to it than than that but without another person in the jeep, without a recording device or dash cam, without her being able to tell her option of what happen all we have is his version of events and I'm sure he woudln't say he threated her or hit her. He will paint himself as a saint just trying to help the mean lady.

There are many questions, most unanswered - that is precisely why I remain in the middle of the road, maintaining my neutrality, on much of this. The problem that even that creates is separating the non-legal from the truly pertinent legal issues.

 

[DocWalker]

separating the non-legal from the truly pertinent legal issues.

This is why he has User for a lawyer....

 

[roscoe13]

Your right, we don't know either way do we. So why I'm I criticized for reserving judgement? I'm surprised that disappointment is even a consideration.

Re-read what you wrote in post 1519. Those are NOT the words of someone who is reserving judgement....

Please, please tell me how being asked for their license puts anyone in fear for their life (which is an assumption in itself).

Please, please tell me how you know that being asked for her license is what was going on at the time? Or, is that another assumption on your part...

Roscoe

 

[Grapeshot]

Re-read what you wrote in post 1519. Those are NOT the words of someone who is reserving judgement....



Please, please tell me how you know that being asked for her license is what was going on at the time? Or, is that another assumption on your part...

Roscoe

Presume you refer to this:
"What reasonable, responsible person purports to leave or attempts to drive away from a seizure/detention? Seems to me that virtually 100% of the time we say to not engage in street court and after objection, stating that you are cooperating under duress or remain silent, follow through from the safety/comfort of your home or office. There was no "necessity" to her actions; she wasn't "forced" to make those decisions or respond the way she did - she chose to do so. Seriously bad judgement IMO and a situation that went from unpleasant to very bad because of it".


I am reserving judgement on the case. Nevertheless I will still hold that not following the directions of a LEO (even if under duress) will cause you greater personal problems on the street. Feel free to do it her way, I will do it mine.

I know no more than you regarding the license request. There are those that have intimated nefarious actions/intent on the officer's part with no more evidence than their imagination.

There may be enough blame/responsibility to go around to both principal actors in this. I do not know that yet though - that is the basis for my statement of neutrality. That is where I am and I make no apology for wishing to remain so for now.

 

[DocWalker]

Presume you refer to this:
"What reasonable, responsible person purports to leave or attempts to drive away from a seizure/detention? Seems to me that virtually 100% of the time we say to not engage in street court and after objection, stating that you are cooperating under duress or remain silent, follow through from the safety/comfort of your home or office. There was no "necessity" to her actions; she wasn't "forced" to make those decisions or respond the way she did - she chose to do so. Seriously bad judgement IMO and a situation that went from unpleasant to very bad because of it".


I am reserving judgement on the case. Nevertheless I will still hold that not following the directions of a LEO (even if under duress) will cause you greater personal problems on the street. Feel free to do it her way, I will do it mine.

I know no more than you regarding the license request. There are those that have intimated nefarious actions/intent on the officer's part with no more evidence than their imagination.

There may be enough blame/responsibility to go around to both principal actors in this. I do not know that yet though - that is the basis for my statement of neutrality. That is where I am and I make no apology for wishing to remain so for now.

1. I would 99% of the time follow what a LE request but there is that 1% that I feel I have a criminal wearing a badge I might have to defend my life. Saying 100% of all LEO's are good honest people 100% of the time is not responsiable. In Ohio you have former officer Harlin (or something like that) and there are other cases of LEO's gon bad. I'm not say that this is one of them but I'm not saying it isn't either.

2. The lady might have had a mental or medical issue, the officer might have threatened her outside his LE duties to cause her to panic and flee or there could be another reason. Only the lady knew why she took off and she is dead. My only hope is that the other LEO's start using their dash cams and recording devices on EVERY call from now on. I feel the good LEO's don't mind using them as they have nothing to hide, those that don't turn them on I get nervous about.
3. Your right he will have his day and probably get off scott free but she will be just as dead for what? Parking in a church parking lot and not kissing the officer rear.

 

[Sheriff]

Whenever a cop ends up in trouble, always take notice that it's about what is about to happen to the cop (as in fear). In this link you will see an aggressive cop assault a man on a cell phone. The cop picked the fight. And then the cop magically assaulted the other man because..... are you ready for this.... he thought the man was going to assault him first!!!!! I don't think so. The victim is now on life support, and has already had 2 brain surgeries. When it goes to trial, the cop's defense will be self defense. The victim will probably have permanent brain damage and might be lucky to count to 10 by himself.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/minneapolis-swat-officer-charg

 

[skidmark]

DocWalker -

Please, pretty please, explain to me how knowing why Mrs. Cook "fled" the scene has any bearing at all on the issue of whether or not the cop committed any or all of the crimes he has been charged with, let alone determininh if he is guilty of any or all of them.

I thought, probably wrongly, that this was about the cop shooting someone and whether or not doing so was a criminal act. Why are you trying so hard to ascribe a motive to the actions of the person the cop ended up shooting?

I know I'm just sitting here going :banghead: because it feels so good. But in spite of that I'd really like to hear why this has become so important to you.

stay safe.

 

[marshaul]

Why are you trying so hard to ascribe a motive to the actions of the person the cop ended up shooting?

Possibly because if her motives were reasonably created by illegal and aggressive actions of the cop, then the actions she took cannot be justification for him shooting her. :banghead:

Would it be self-defense if one person assaulted another person, forcing the second person to draw a gun to protect himself, and then the first person shot the second?

 

[MAC702]

Nope - I emphasized the point I intended.

There are other witnesses.

To the conversation? Really? Because that's what we are talking about here. I apologize profusely if I've missed that part.

 

[Grapeshot]

To the conversation? Really? Because that's what we are talking about here. I apologize profusely if I've missed that part.

I must have missed where the dialog here was so restricted.

 

[skidmark]

Possibly because if her motives were reasonably created by illegal and aggressive actions of the cop, then the actions she took cannot be justification for him shooting her. :banghead:

Would it be self-defense if one person assaulted another person, forcing the second person to draw a gun to protect himself, and then the first person shot the second?

Well, absent any other information the answer is "Probably." You can figure out why I said that - as in you are intelligent enough and sufficiently versed in the law to understand why.

In the instant case I challenge you to indicate where/how any presumed arrest of Mrs. Cook for any activity even remotely related to her supposed trespass would have been unlawful, thus triggering the excusable/justifiable use of lethal force in resisting the same. If you are, instead, going for a "heat of the moment" behavior triggered/driven by a sincerely held fear of police in general it is quite a stretch to arrive at a reasonably held apprehension (as in "knowing" as opposed to "fearing") of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and I would dearly like to see how you connect the dots to get there.

You claim "illegal and aggressive actions" but have never explained how they were illegal. The aggressiveness of the actions will forever be open to debate even if there had been audio and video recording evidence to review - so we will just ignore that emotion-laden term if that will be OK with you.

I'm still not sure if the guy is guilty of anything that is not excusable/justifiable. There are questions that need answering that I probably will never get answers to unless I sit on the jury. On the other hand, several here have already determined that actions not related to the charges levied are sufficient to render a verdict of "guilty of something".

Just for giggles - where do you stand on the Zimmerman case - the guy who shot Trayvon Martin? Self defense or murder? And how does the process you use to arrive at that decision differ from how you arrive at your decision here?

stay safe.

stay safe.

 

[Grapeshot]

Well, absent any other information the answer is "Probably." You can figure out why I said that - as in you are intelligent enough and sufficiently versed in the law to understand why.

In the instant case I challenge you to indicate where/how any presumed arrest of Mrs. Cook for any activity even remotely related to her supposed trespass would have been unlawful, thus triggering the excusable/justifiable use of lethal force in resisting the same. If you are, instead, going for a "heat of the moment" behavior triggered/driven by a sincerely held fear of police in general it is quite a stretch to arrive at a reasonably held apprehension (as in "knowing" as opposed to "fearing") of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and I would dearly like to see how you connect the dots to get there.

You claim "illegal and aggressive actions" but have never explained how they were illegal. The aggressiveness of the actions will forever be open to debate even if there had been audio and video recording evidence to review - so we will just ignore that emotion-laden term if that will be OK with you.

I'm still not sure if the guy is guilty of anything that is not excusable/justifiable. There are questions that need answering that I probably will never get answers to unless I sit on the jury. On the other hand, several here have already determined that actions not related to the charges levied are sufficient to render a verdict of "guilty of something".

Just for giggles - where do you stand on the Zimmerman case - the guy who shot Trayvon Martin? Self defense or murder? And how does the process you use to arrive at that decision differ from how you arrive at your decision here?

stay safe.

stay safe.

Being logical and concluding neutrality would not seem to be a popular position regarding this event with some here, Skid. How is it that you can read the same material and not reach the same hang-'em-high level?

Your invitation to compare the cognitive process vs results in the Z case to this one is reasonable. Perhaps in the final analysis it depends on who one wants to be wrong. I would surely hate to be judged by that mind set.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip> Life goes on.

Not for Patricia A. Cook.

 

[DocWalker]

Well, absent any other information the answer is "Probably." You can figure out why I said that - as in you are intelligent enough and sufficiently versed in the law to understand why.

In the instant case I challenge you to indicate where/how any presumed arrest of Mrs. Cook for any activity even remotely related to her supposed trespass would have been unlawful, thus triggering the excusable/justifiable use of lethal force in resisting the same. If you are, instead, going for a "heat of the moment" behavior triggered/driven by a sincerely held fear of police in general it is quite a stretch to arrive at a reasonably held apprehension (as in "knowing" as opposed to "fearing") of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and I would dearly like to see how you connect the dots to get there.

You claim "illegal and aggressive actions" but have never explained how they were illegal. The aggressiveness of the actions will forever be open to debate even if there had been audio and video recording evidence to review - so we will just ignore that emotion-laden term if that will be OK with you.

I'm still not sure if the guy is guilty of anything that is not excusable/justifiable. There are questions that need answering that I probably will never get answers to unless I sit on the jury. On the other hand, several here have already determined that actions not related to the charges levied are sufficient to render a verdict of "guilty of something".

Just for giggles - where do you stand on the Zimmerman case - the guy who shot Trayvon Martin? Self defense or murder? And how does the process you use to arrive at that decision differ from how you arrive at your decision here?

stay safe.

stay safe.

My bad, I forgot a badge allows the person wearing it to assault someone, abuse someone and kill someone without impunity. A badge allows the persone wearing it to beat and force them to take it or (and this is were it gets good) defend themselves. If they defend themselves then the officer has every right to put 5-6 slugs into you until you stop resisting.

I didn't get trained that at the acadamy and I don't think any of my friends did either but I'm sure this must be true as the officers caught on camera keep getting off without going to jail.

Does Rodney King ring a bell? How about Officer Harlin from Ohio? Maybe Officer Josh Moody shooting an unarmed man in his driveway is ok since the officer said he thought he made a move when the victim really only got tangled in his seatbelt exiting his truck.

I would usally side with LE 99% of the time but they are public servants and not Judge Dread and they need to be held accountable for their actions. I have always said he will have his day in court, I however don't expect he will spend further time behind bars not because I think he was justified but that our system protects LE from being held accountable.

 

[peter nap]

Deleted to give Defender room to add to this thread!

 

[1245A Defender]

Whoa!!!

what the FJUCK????

The point of your post was.... What??
Quoting.. Novacop10... and DOUG!!!
AND..a banned and discretted... RAVEN!!!
WHAT THE ****!!! IS THAT???

is your post,, to bolster the cops testimony?
or discredit the doubters of the cops testimony?
I can NOT tell...

You have NOTadded anything to this thread.

 

[peter nap]

what the FJUCK????

The point of your post was.... What??
Quoting.. Novacop10... and DOUG!!!
AND..a banned and discretted... RAVEN!!!
WHAT THE ****!!! IS THAT???

is your post,, to bolster the cops testimony?
or discredit the doubters of the cops testimony?
I can NOT tell...

You have NOTadded anything to this thread.

No Point and since it bothers you so damn much, I'll be happy to remove it and just let you spread your great wisdom around!
Happy