CWP in PWC

[Citizen]

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Mike wrote:

Hrumpf, I withdraw my objection #2 to LEO 229's posting in this thread, though it would behoove him to post textwith quotation marks and elipses to avoid confusion- & last time I rely on Citizen's analysis! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Where is citizen? Time to walk the plank for that one it is!:X

My apologies, Captain. Sincerely.

______________

However, out of a sense of self-preservation I've cleaned out the orlop deck--all the spare cordage went to the deep, so you can't keelhaul me.I've been collecting blackmail material on the ship's carpenter for years, so there is going to be a sudden lack of spare planks.

I'll just try to secure a berth on another ship wheretheCaptain has enough sense to realize a crewman who can't reconcile ship's regs might just misunderstand something.

 

[Xeni]

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The Clerk's office cashed my check on the 3rd and no word yet as to being accepted or rejected. I'm gonna give it roughly 20 more days before I send in a certified letter asking the Clerk to issue me a defacto permit, assuming I don't hear anything of course.

Just wanted to keep everyone posted and that I'm hanging tough and did not send in a copy of my ID.

-X

 

[mobeewan]

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18.2-308.K

...Snip...that court for payment of other fees or penalties. No payment shall be required until the application is accepted by the court as a complete application. The order issuing such permit, or the copy of the...Snip...

If they accepted payment and cashed the check, then the application is accepted as completed.

 

[Xeni]

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mobeewan wrote:

18.2-308.K

...Snip...that court for payment of other fees or penalties. No payment shall be required until the application is accepted by the court as a complete application. The order issuing such permit, or the copy of the...Snip...

If they accepted payment and cashed the check, then the application is accepted as completed.

Unfortunatly, that didn't work. Here's the situation -- it gets fun.

I called and found out that even though my check has been cashed, my application wasn't in the system. I had to be transferred to the initial employee that I spoke to and had requested my ID. She told me that my application had been put into the 'trouble' pile and that she didn't put it into the system because it would be rejected by the Prince William County Police.

I asked for a de'facto permit since my payment had already been processed. She told me that I could write to her supervisor and they would decide if a defacto permit would be issued.

As for my check being cashed, she claims that she cashed it only after she had spoken to me and been assured that I would send in payment. But, the check was deposited before her call to me.

Additionally, she said that EVEN if a defacto permit is issued, it'll just be recalled because I'm not following the policy of the Prince William County Police Department. I mentioned that the policy is against the law as no locality can require something additional outside of whats listed in the Code of Virginia for CWPs. She said that she understood that I had a grasp of the law but that her hands were tied and she couldn't proceed further and that I was welcome to write to her Supervisor.

This exchange was funny though:

Her> Is there any reason you don't want to give us your ID?

Me> Yes, it's not required by law.

Her> Oh. But, I can't process your paperwork without it.

So, looks like I have to fire up MS Word. Anyone have a fair priced gun-friendly attorney who's familiar with the CWP law that they can recommend?

BTW, my impression from the conversation was that the timer has NOT started.

 

[Skeptic]

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Their argument will probably be something like since a county can require a fingerprint check, they surely can require photo ID.

Be interesting to see where this goes. To me though the timer started when they cashed your check.

 

[possumboy]

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Skeptic wrote:

Their argument will probably be something like since a county can require a fingerprint check, they surely can require photo ID.

Be interesting to see where this goes. To me though the timer started when they cashed your check.

The timer started when you turned in your application. If they have not denied or approved you in 45 days. They have have receipt of the application and it is up to them to deny you based on it not being complete.

Contact VCDL and start writing letters.

"The court shall issue the permit and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order pursuant to subsection L. An application is deemed complete when all information required to be furnished by the applicant is delivered to and received by the clerk of court before or concomitant with the conduct of a state or national criminal history records check. If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, "

 

[eyesopened]

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VCDL hasa link to these lawyers on their frontpage: http://www.hkshooter.net/lawyers/I have no clue about their costs or references, but it's a start.

I want to thank you for staying the course and not folding to their demand for ID. It'd be so much easier to comply, but most times the right thing to do is not the easiest.

 

[Skeptic]

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possumboy wrote:

Skeptic wrote:

Their argument will probably be something like since a county can require a fingerprint check, they surely can require photo ID.

Be interesting to see where this goes. To me though the timer started when they cashed your check.

The timer started when you turned in your application. If they have not denied or approved you in 45 days. They have have receipt of the application and it is up to them to deny you based on it not being complete."

True, but if the OP mailed it in they don't have a reciept to prove when that application was turned in, only a cancelled check.

 

[Mike]

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Are you over 45 days or not? If you are, call the Clerk of Court and demand that she follow the law and "send" you a de facto permit.

Please do not back down.

If you are formally denied for the CHP,you can appeal directly to the Ct. of Appeals - contact me off line about this and how others can help you if you want to discuss.

 

[Xeni]

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Mike wrote:

Are you over 45 days or not? If you are, call the Clerk of Court and demand that she follow the law and "send" you a de facto permit.

Please do not back down.

If you are formally denied for the CHP,you can appeal directly to the Ct. of Appeals - contact me off line about this and how others can help you if you want to discuss.

I have no intention of backing down. My check and application were submitted by mail and I believe to have been accepted on 3 Jan 08. So, 45 days have not gone past BUT they consider the clock not have started because they haven't even put the application into the system because they know it'll get denied by the PWCPD.

I will not back down (it's getting warmer, I don't need the CHP as much as I did back in December) but need some help/guidance on how to proceed to get the County policy changed and get my County to follow the law.

 

[Xeni]

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For those interested in my challange with the Prince William County Clerk's office my issue was resolved. I was granted a permit on Friday the 8th after I responded to the Clerk's email advising her that her office had held up my permit for not providing my ID. Within 2 hours I recieved an email from her telling me that a Judge has signed my permit. I got it in the mail the next day. Kudos to the Clerk for ownership of the issue.

While I'm somewhat disappointed about not going to court over the issue, I am not going away empty handed. Below is an email from the Clerk regarding defacto permits and the copying of ID in regards to the application of a concealed handgun permit.

My hope is that any citizen of Prince William County may use this thread to help themselves get a permit if they do not wish to disclose thier identification card for whatever reason you feel is appropriate.

As I told the clerk -- I am not asking for any employee to be disciplined as I can understand people make mistakes. However, I do feel that as a law-abiding citizen it is my duty to point out when the government has made an error that can be construed as unlawful.

[line]

Dear Mr.:

Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. We will not be asking for ID from those who come into the office to file an application for a Concealed Handgun Permit. FYI our website states that the application can be mailed; there is no mention of ID; and we have been processing those applications.

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The following is a response to your request.]

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A copy of the Clerk’s Office “guidelines” for processing a Concealed Handgun Permit is on our website at]

[url]http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040017000650000092[/url].

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The application is a form prescribed by the Department of State Police in consultation with the Supreme Court]; therefore, the Clerk has no control over its content.

[url]http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/SP-248_revised_07-1-2006.pdf[/url]

Copying the applicant's ID is for the convenience of the Police Department (PD).* The Clerk’s Office sends the application without it if the person doesn't want to give it. There is no requirement for the clerk to copy the ID and forward it with the application to the PD. I understand that the Police Departments process the background checks regardless of whether they have a copy of the ID or not. Having the ID helps them do their job better because it helps them narrow down the number of "hits" that come up in the search and helps them when the applicant's handwriting is not legible. Illegible handwriting could delay the process if the applicant has to be called for additional information.

We do not have a separate document addressing defacto permits, but rely on 18.2-308 D.for instruction. The"decision steps" for refusing a defacto permit are for the judge to determine.

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“]D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. The clerk shall enter on the application the date on which the application and all other information required to be submitted by the applicant is received. The court shall consult with either the sheriff or police department of the county or city and receive a report from the Central Criminal Records Exchange. As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I. Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes. The court shall issue the permit and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order pursuant to subsection L. An application is deemed complete when all information required to be furnished by the applicant is delivered to and received by the clerk of court before or concomitant with the conduct of a state or national criminal history records check. If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, until the court issues a five-year permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified. If the applicant is found to be disqualified after the de facto permit is issued, the applicant shall surrender the de facto permit to the court and the disqualification shall be deemed a denial of the permit and a revocation of the de facto permit. If the applicant is later found by the court to be disqualified after a permit has been issued, the five-year permit shall be revoked. The clerk of court may withhold from public disclosure the social security number contained in a permit application in response to a request to inspect or copy any such permit application, except that such social security number shall not be withheld from any law-enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties.”

There is no internal document explaining the process of communicating information between the PD and the Clerk. The Clerk sends a copy by interoffice mail to the Prince William County (PWC) Police and US Mail to the City of Manassas Park PD; the City of Manassas picks up their copies here at the Clerk's Office. All three return their findings in person; however, if there are no positives, PWC PD returns the finding bye-mail.


Sincerely,

Michele B. McQuigg

Clerk of Circuit Court

9311 Lee Avenue

Manassas, VA 20110

703-792-7560 (voice)

703-792-4721 (fax)

mmcquigg@pwcgov.org

[url]www.pwcgov.org/ccourt[/url]

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*Note: If the application has not been notarized prior to bringing the application to the Clerk’s Office, the Clerk can administer the oath. That requires the Clerk to see an ID from the applicant.]

 

[eyesopened]

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Congrats Xeni! I'm glad this was resolved in your favor.

 

[DrMark]

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Niiiiice!

 

[Citizen]

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Well done!