sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
First off I have to say I have been approached three times by LEO's while OCing. Twice in Oly as the result of 911 calls, and once in Seattle by two beat cops walking around. The two incidents in Oly resulted in me being disarmed. The one in Seattle was a little chit chat without even showing ID.
First off you aren't going to win an argument with cops on the street. Period. End of story. Roll over and take it. It sucks, it really does, but my opinion is end it ASAP, and take it up with their superiors.
Ask why are you being detained. They may have a good answer or it may be BS.
Cooperate. Ask for a supervisor and badge numbers. If they want to see a CPL and you have one, what the heck. It doesn't do any harm, nor does it help your cause to refuse it. They'll find out about it if/when they run you. Save everyone some time.
I believe very few LEO's are out there deliberately trying to prevent OC. Confused on the issue? Heck yeah. Unsure of procedure? Again, yeah. Don't know what to do, and fall back on the closest training they have? Yuppers.
This is where we as OC'rs step in. We are still on the cutting edge of a movement in this state. It will be some time before LEO's have a firm grasp of what to do with OC. We can help the process along immensely by working with them. A cool head and reasonable words are worth more than all the satisfaction of calling someone a jack booted thug.
YES our rights are violated. NO it is not fun. But I do not think it is a deliberate act. Oftentimes THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. Blame their superiors.
In Oly things have gone from "It's legal until someone feels alarmed" to "It's legal." We can effect this same change other places.
Now to head off the name calling flames, I don't care if anyone wants to call me a pussy, a turncoat, a coward, or whatnot.
By training I do sales, customer service and when I have the energy to deal with complete and clueless morons, computer tech support. The three have a lot in common. Problem identification and solving. Assessing your customer and their needs. Presenting what you want done in a fashion that gets others to cooperate. By training and practice I am firm and tough when needed, and a total pushover when called for. I do tend to get my way though.
A LEO encounter to me is like a sales opportunity. What am I selling? A long forgotten civil right. What is my pitch? Well since it involves guns, I better be reasonable, rational and calm. Who is my target audience. If you guessed beat cops, you guessed wrong.
Those fine men and women while exercising a good bit of authority and power, are restrained in a lot of things. One must go over their heads. My target audience, are those in charge. You sell admin, you sell the whole department.
Beat cops are people and have opinions and beliefs as much as anyone else. They are also trained. They have huge latitude in some things, very little in others.
Being reasonable with the beat cops will help your pitch with admin. A person who comes across as a jerk with the cops who stopped you, will not get a warm reception from admin.
Given the nature of our rights and the law, we will get our point across sooner or later. I prefer sooner, and sooner calls for playing The Game.
I would rather be viewed as a rational person who can be worked with than an extremist nut job with a gun.
So I play the game. I keep beating the same drum. I get outside help when needed.
Remember we are dealing with a bureaucratic mindset. It is a tough nut to crack.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and rights are not recovered overnight.
To sum it up, be nice to the guy jacking you up. It will score you points when you file a complaint. Be nice to the Lieutenant or Sergeant or Captain taking your complaint. It will score you a lot more points. Be well informed. Be calm. Firmly state your rights, and stick to your guns.
We must change departmental mindset. It can be slow, but progress can be had.
But the first step is in our dealings with cops.
The second step is our words on this forum. I know of several local LEO's reading this board. With that in mind I phrase my posts accordingly. The foul up I make today, could cause me problems on the street tomorrow.
I am always selling my product and must the integrity of that product in the front of my mind.
First off I have to say I have been approached three times by LEO's while OCing. Twice in Oly as the result of 911 calls, and once in Seattle by two beat cops walking around. The two incidents in Oly resulted in me being disarmed. The one in Seattle was a little chit chat without even showing ID.
First off you aren't going to win an argument with cops on the street. Period. End of story. Roll over and take it. It sucks, it really does, but my opinion is end it ASAP, and take it up with their superiors.
Ask why are you being detained. They may have a good answer or it may be BS.
Cooperate. Ask for a supervisor and badge numbers. If they want to see a CPL and you have one, what the heck. It doesn't do any harm, nor does it help your cause to refuse it. They'll find out about it if/when they run you. Save everyone some time.
I believe very few LEO's are out there deliberately trying to prevent OC. Confused on the issue? Heck yeah. Unsure of procedure? Again, yeah. Don't know what to do, and fall back on the closest training they have? Yuppers.
This is where we as OC'rs step in. We are still on the cutting edge of a movement in this state. It will be some time before LEO's have a firm grasp of what to do with OC. We can help the process along immensely by working with them. A cool head and reasonable words are worth more than all the satisfaction of calling someone a jack booted thug.
YES our rights are violated. NO it is not fun. But I do not think it is a deliberate act. Oftentimes THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. Blame their superiors.
In Oly things have gone from "It's legal until someone feels alarmed" to "It's legal." We can effect this same change other places.
Now to head off the name calling flames, I don't care if anyone wants to call me a pussy, a turncoat, a coward, or whatnot.
By training I do sales, customer service and when I have the energy to deal with complete and clueless morons, computer tech support. The three have a lot in common. Problem identification and solving. Assessing your customer and their needs. Presenting what you want done in a fashion that gets others to cooperate. By training and practice I am firm and tough when needed, and a total pushover when called for. I do tend to get my way though.
A LEO encounter to me is like a sales opportunity. What am I selling? A long forgotten civil right. What is my pitch? Well since it involves guns, I better be reasonable, rational and calm. Who is my target audience. If you guessed beat cops, you guessed wrong.
Those fine men and women while exercising a good bit of authority and power, are restrained in a lot of things. One must go over their heads. My target audience, are those in charge. You sell admin, you sell the whole department.
Beat cops are people and have opinions and beliefs as much as anyone else. They are also trained. They have huge latitude in some things, very little in others.
Being reasonable with the beat cops will help your pitch with admin. A person who comes across as a jerk with the cops who stopped you, will not get a warm reception from admin.
Given the nature of our rights and the law, we will get our point across sooner or later. I prefer sooner, and sooner calls for playing The Game.
I would rather be viewed as a rational person who can be worked with than an extremist nut job with a gun.
So I play the game. I keep beating the same drum. I get outside help when needed.
Remember we are dealing with a bureaucratic mindset. It is a tough nut to crack.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and rights are not recovered overnight.
To sum it up, be nice to the guy jacking you up. It will score you points when you file a complaint. Be nice to the Lieutenant or Sergeant or Captain taking your complaint. It will score you a lot more points. Be well informed. Be calm. Firmly state your rights, and stick to your guns.
We must change departmental mindset. It can be slow, but progress can be had.
But the first step is in our dealings with cops.
The second step is our words on this forum. I know of several local LEO's reading this board. With that in mind I phrase my posts accordingly. The foul up I make today, could cause me problems on the street tomorrow.
I am always selling my product and must the integrity of that product in the front of my mind.