Definition of "clearly visible"?

[nova]

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LEO 229 wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

They have kits to drop the bumper on really tall vehicles, but I get your point. Do LEOs ask drivers of 18 wheelers and such to step out of their vehicles at traffic stops? How does that scenario play out?

Can the LEO say that you were concealing when you were in your vehicle before you stepped out?

I normally step up on the steps for the big rigs and look into the vehicle. Truckers are not known for being rude or dangerous to cops. But they are known for packing weapons for protection.

I have not had any encounters with jacked up pickups but if there is no way to step up and speak with the driver unless I sit next to him... I will be asking him to step out and down to ground level.

Once you are OUT of the vehicle and the door closed.... IMO if it IShidden... it no longer applies since you do not have access to it unless you get back inside. Now it is technically in your immediate control and accessible and you could probably be charged with it.

This goes back to the questions posted.... "What if I put it in my glove box and get out to enter the club? Is it concealed?" The answer would be NO because you are storing it as you intend to get out. I was told somebody was changed with doing this before and IMO that was wrong.

I believe there was a court case settled where a man got into a car accident, and put his gun into his center console. The LEOs who responded to the crash arrested and charged him with concealing without a permit, he fought it in court and won. It was ruled that since he was only in the car with the gun concealed for enough time to do so and then lock the car once outside it, he was not convicted.

I thought I had the name of the court case but can't find it on my computer now.

 

[LEO 229]

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nova wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

They have kits to drop the bumper on really tall vehicles, but I get your point. Do LEOs ask drivers of 18 wheelers and such to step out of their vehicles at traffic stops? How does that scenario play out?

Can the LEO say that you were concealing when you were in your vehicle before you stepped out?

I normally step up on the steps for the big rigs and look into the vehicle. Truckers are not known for being rude or dangerous to cops. But they are known for packing weapons for protection.

I have not had any encounters with jacked up pickups but if there is no way to step up and speak with the driver unless I sit next to him... I will be asking him to step out and down to ground level.

Once you are OUT of the vehicle and the door closed.... IMO if it IShidden... it no longer applies since you do not have access to it unless you get back inside. Now it is technically in your immediate control and accessible and you could probably be charged with it.

This goes back to the questions posted.... "What if I put it in my glove box and get out to enter the club? Is it concealed?" The answer would be NO because you are storing it as you intend to get out. I was told somebody was changed with doing this before and IMO that was wrong.

I believe there was a court case settled where a man got into a car accident, and put his gun into his center console. The LEOs who responded to the crash arrested and charged him with concealing without a permit, he fought it in court and won. It was ruled that since he was only in the car with the gun concealed for enough time to do so and then lock the car once outside it, he was not convicted.

I thought I had the name of the court case but can't find it on my computer now.

That sounds logical

 

[MeBaby]

imported post

nova wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

They have kits to drop the bumper on really tall vehicles, but I get your point. Do LEOs ask drivers of 18 wheelers and such to step out of their vehicles at traffic stops? How does that scenario play out?

Can the LEO say that you were concealing when you were in your vehicle before you stepped out?

I normally step up on the steps for the big rigs and look into the vehicle. Truckers are not known for being rude or dangerous to cops. But they are known for packing weapons for protection.

I have not had any encounters with jacked up pickups but if there is no way to step up and speak with the driver unless I sit next to him... I will be asking him to step out and down to ground level.

Once you are OUT of the vehicle and the door closed.... IMO if it IShidden... it no longer applies since you do not have access to it unless you get back inside. Now it is technically in your immediate control and accessible and you could probably be charged with it.

This goes back to the questions posted.... "What if I put it in my glove box and get out to enter the club? Is it concealed?" The answer would be NO because you are storing it as you intend to get out. I was told somebody was changed with doing this before and IMO that was wrong.

I believe there was a court case settled where a man got into a car accident, and put his gun into his center console. The LEOs who responded to the crash arrested and charged him with concealing without a permit, he fought it in court and won. It was ruled that since he was only in the car with the gun concealed for enough time to do so and then lock the car once outside it, he was not convicted.

I thought I had the name of the court case but can't find it on my computer now.

It was Va vs Pruitt out in Danville and the Va Supreme Court overturned the lower court conviction

 

[Doug Huffman]

imported post

Well not this Pruitt

http://www.state.wv.us/WVSCA/docs/Spring08/33526.htm

It is undisputed, however, that Trooper Kane fired a total of sixteen shots and hit the decedent fourteen times, and that the decedent never fired a single shot. It is also undisputed that Trooper Kane fired 12 shots at the decedent, reloaded his gun clip, and fired an additional four shots at the decedent. The appellants presented evidence below indicating that some of the shots hit the decedent in the right flank, the right buttock, and the posterior left upper leg. Finally, although the issue is disputed, there is evidence from which a person could conclude that the decedent was not holding a firearm when he was shot.

 

[MeBaby]

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

Well not this Pruitt

http://www.state.wv.us/WVSCA/docs/Spring08/33526.htm

It is undisputed, however, that Trooper Kane fired a total of sixteen shots and hit the decedent fourteen times, and that the decedent never fired a single shot. It is also undisputed that Trooper Kane fired 12 shots at the decedent, reloaded his gun clip, and fired an additional four shots at the decedent. The appellants presented evidence below indicating that some of the shots hit the decedent in the right flank, the right buttock, and the posterior left upper leg. Finally, although the issue is disputed, there is evidence from which a person could conclude that the decedent was not holding a firearm when he was shot.

You are right. It was this Pruitt

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Thanks. Good case and interesting reading.

 

[AbNo]

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vt357 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

What about going to a restaurant that serves alcohol where one must OC?  If you sit down in a booth with your firearm to the wall, where basically nobody can see it (even though it is being carried openly on your hip), should that be illegal?  Should you have to sit with the strong side facing out?

If someone were sitting on your strong side, they would be able to see it.

Just because there is no one sitting on your strong side does not make it concealed.

LEO 229 wrote: The code does not say WHO has to see it, right?

If a gun is carried and no one is around to see it, is it CC?

 

[AbNo]

imported post

MeBaby wrote:

nova wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

They have kits to drop the bumper on really tall vehicles, but I get your point.  Do LEOs ask drivers of 18 wheelers and such to step out of their vehicles at traffic stops?  How does that scenario play out?

Can the LEO say that you were concealing when you were in your vehicle before you stepped out? 

I normally step up on the steps for the big rigs and look into the vehicle. Truckers are not known for being rude or dangerous to cops. But they are known for packing weapons for protection.

I have not had any encounters with jacked up pickups but if there is no way to step up and speak with the driver unless I sit next to him... I will be asking him to step out and down to ground level.

Once you are OUT of the vehicle and the door closed....  IMO if it IS hidden... it no longer applies since you do not have access to it unless you get back inside. Now it is technically in your immediate control and accessible and you could probably be charged with it.

This goes back to the questions posted.... "What if I put it in my glove box and get out to enter the club? Is it concealed?"  The answer would be NO because you are storing it as you intend to get out. I was told somebody was changed with doing this before and IMO that was wrong.

I believe there was a court case settled where a man got into a car accident, and put his gun into his center console. The LEOs who responded to the crash arrested and charged him with concealing without a permit, he fought it in court and won. It was ruled that since he was only in the car with the gun concealed for enough time to do so and then lock the car once outside it, he was not convicted.

I thought I had the name of the court case but can't find it on my computer now.

It was Va vs Pruitt out in Danville and the Va Supreme Court overturned the lower court conviction

Here you go. Google to the rescue!
www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1061701.pdf

 

[packin_NC_79]

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longwatch wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

longwatch wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Now the purpose is so that thebusinessdo not over serve you while armed. But this is not even stated or clearly spelled out in the code.

Well then how do you know that? Not saying your wrong but do you have a cite for that claim? Personally, I believe that the antis f'd up when they put that poison pill there in 1995, not realizing their error in not banning OC.

This is the ONLY logical explanation for the law to exist. If you have a better theory I would entertain hearing it.

There have been new articles in the pastthatactually referenced the same thing so it confirmed my theory.

And as you said.... they did not BAN OC so they limited the law to hidden firearms for a specific reason. They could have easily just banned ALL firearms.

Well I thought I just did give you my theory. However as the General Assembly just this year declined an amendment to ban drinking while OCing, their reasoning for doing so was not that they wanted to punish OC intoxication but that it was not germane to the CHP restaurant carry bill. Hence the GA is very conservative as changing laws and doesn't go to far in modifying bills. This is what may have happened in 1995, they were just modifying existing CHP law to shall issue and put the poison pill preventing concealed carry while intoxicated and in restaurants that served alcohol. Open carry being almost extinct in 95, and preemption of local OC prohibitions 9 years away, I'd bet open carry was never even considered in the process.

My truck is high enough that you can not clearly see inside the cab from ground level. Of course it is a semi and every time I have dealt with a LEO during my driving career it has been out of the truck. I do not worry about the "clearly visible" issue due to the common-sensical nature of the argument. I personally am looking forward to a favorable opinion in DC vs. Heller so I will be allowed to protect myself from "homegrown terrorists" aka. Thugs aka. non law abiding citizens who mean myself and others harm.

BTW, Hello as this is my first post and thanks for the great forum. I have read through a lot of the posts and thought this was a decent place to start.

 

[AbNo]

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Welcome, N4!

 

[packin_NC_79]

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Thanks for the welcome. I was born and raised in NC, about 30 miles from Charlotte. I don't get to visit very often anymore, but always OC when I do. I love VA and hope to see more OC the next time I visit. For now I am in NE, OC'ing of course and to my vey pleasant surprise, no one has gone nuts when they see it. I carry a S&W Mod 19-4, bought from a Florida Trooper. It came with the holster so I just use that. It is obvious that I am carrying a gun, but no one seems to care. That is just how it ought to be.