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Detained by NPD yet AGAIN!!!

L

LEO 229

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Wooley wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Wooley wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
You also seem to think that asking someone to move from one location to another is somehow.. "an arrest". This is so absurd I do not know where to begin. :?
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My question is, was he asked or told to leave the bus? If he said "no" would he then be told to leave the bus? At this point his free movement is restricted by law enforcement.

There is a name for that...you know, when a police officer informs you that you are no longer free to leave...what the devil do they call that? Someone help me.
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As I recall.... Danbus asked and was told he was being "detained". So your attempting to make a point of being asked or ordered really does not matter in this case.

BTW: I believe he was asked to step off the bus. He asked if he was being detained and was told yes.

Of course, If I ask you to stand "over there" you are not being detained by the common man approach.

Now if I tell you "Stand over there"... the common man would believe you are now being detained as your movements are being controlled.
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Let make sure we're on the same page here and both discussing oranges...I'm tired and maybe reading you wrong here.

I was responding to what you said above in bold. Of course your two scenarios make the difference. I think I was going for the intention of the officer which is impossible for me or anyone here to know for certain. I would think though that after being asked to stand over there, if the person walked off there might be a problem...a problem like finding out you're not actually allowed to leave.

That is an arrest.
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OK, Let's look at what I said. ;)

that asking someone to move from one location to another is somehow.. "an arrest"

Please take note to the word in red.

If I ask you to step off the bus and talk to me and you do... you are neither under arrest or being detained. I can ask you to pick your nose and you are still not under arrest unless you flick it in my direction. :lol:

If I ask you to come down to the station and talk me me about something and you agree.. same rule applies.

You can be "detained" and "controlled" in the immediate area where you were found. If I take you from that general area NOW you are considered to be under arrest.

An example would be if I take you down to the station for an interview and you did not agree to go. You are being removed from where you once were. Same goes for getting the victim to have a look at you to identify if you are the guy. You stay put.... the victim comes to you.

There are no hard and fast rules on distance but I am confident that moving someone 5, 10, 25 feet away is not going to be it. There are times when this is necessary such as a crime scene, public view, elements, and other situations.

It appears that you have decided that making anyone move any distance is... an arrest. I do not believe this to be true.

I would recommend you check into the distance issue and post something to back up your assertion if this is what you believe. I know otherwise to be proper.
 
T

Tomahawk

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4 hours south of HankT, ,
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Tacitus wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:

And your time in the Navy has brainwashed you to believe you need permission to exist and a piece of paper to prove you are legit. I know, when I left the Corps I had to adjust to not being owned anymore myself.
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I'm glad you're so eco-friendly that you walk and take public transit everywhere.... unless you're admitting to driving without a license - which is illegal. If I'm brainwashed because I carry my Driver's license and my military ID so that I can obtain medical help for my service connected disabilities in a timely fashion, I guess I'm not the manly man that you are. I don't NEED to wear shoes and socks, either, but they sure make the day easier when out in town. If you go back to my original statement, I have refused to show ID on several occasions when an officer had no legal need to see it. I just think it's foolish to leave home without it. You roll with or without - it's not MY problem, is it?
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If you are going to get sarcastic and offended than why bother arguing. Seriously, I said I agreed with you, mostly, I don't know what your problem is. You even admit that you sometimes refuse to show ID, but somehow you've made this personal.
 
C

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
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TexasNative wrote:
I'm also retired from the Navy, Tacitus, and have much the same mindset as you.

Except when I sterile carry. There are good times to do it, and good reasons for it. If you think someone is foolish when they sterile carry, then you're under-educated. You need to find more information.

Reading these forums would be a good start.

~ Boyd
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Not contradicting anybody. Just using the quoteto establish the subject.

For myself, I'll be carrying ID.

If the LEO requests it, as in leaves me the impression its optional, I'll refuse.

Heh, heh, heh. But, if he demands it--well, I can't very well give him rope if I ain't got any can I?

If an LEO demands my ID during a Terry Stop, I am going to politely hand it over, acting a bit nervous and submissive, while politely saying, "Uh, OK. I'll...uh...comply with your demand. Idon't consent. I'm only doing it because you demanded it."

Lethim take it from my hand when he has no legal authority to demand ID (as opposed to demanding I identify myself).

He's going to learn my name soon enough when the formal complaint lands, anyway.

This method has the additional advantage of not having to learn and rememberthe stop-and-identify statutes/ordinances of every jurisdiction I visit. If the jurisdiction has a stop-and-identify statute (and the Terry Stop is legal), then I'm covered by handing him my ID.

But he is not covered for demanding it. Got him.

And, it has the advantage of complying with an LEO's demands. No mainstream anybodiescan criticize that. Its what is expected. Its what we're taught as good little Americans. Be helpful to the police.
 
T

Tacitus

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I almost hate to bring it up again after some of the rancor in previous posts, but I stood my ground this morning and refused to show ID when a York County Deputy asked for it. I wasn't doing anything wrong, and she even said so, but seemed puzzled when I said that I didn't see any reason for her to have my ID after I'd identified myself. Now, after a man who I assume to be the York County Sheriff himself - though he was never identified, but he had the big unmarked car, was in civvies and got called sir a few dozen times - called my employer and suggested that I was engaged in some sort of suspicious behavior on company time, I'm unemployed. Don't take a nap in a parked car in York County! Certainly not on a public street!
 
Grapeshot

Grapeshot

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Tacitus wrote:
I almost hate to bring it up again after some of the rancor in previous posts, but I stood my ground this morning and refused to show ID when a York County Deputy asked for it. I wasn't doing anything wrong, and she even said so, but seemed puzzled when I said that I didn't see any reason for her to have my ID after I'd identified myself. Now, after a man who I assume to be the York County Sheriff himself - though he was never identified, but he had the big unmarked car, was in civvies and got called sir a few dozen times - called my employer and suggested that I was engaged in some sort of suspicious behavior on company time, I'm unemployed. Don't take a nap in a parked car in York County! Certainly not on a public street!
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Explain please - how did he call your employer if you are not employed?

Yata hey
 
Grapeshot

Grapeshot

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TexasNative wrote:
He was employed this morning. He got fired. Now he's unemployed.

~ Boyd
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Came in on this late w/o question and do not condone what the Sheriff is alleged to have done - might be actionable.

However as I see it the deputy could legitimately request his operators license (ID) - as being in the vehicle while on a public street constitutes "operating a motor vehicle" does it not?

Yata hey
 
HankT

HankT

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Neplusultra wrote:
Nelson_Muntz wrote:
Dunno if he had the keys in the ignition Grape. If he didn't, he wasn't 'operating'.
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I've heard the "keys in the ignition" thing before, not sure if that makes the definition of operating though.
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Actual physical control is the concept that some states use.

Depends on the state, but keys in the ignitionwill usually be APC.
 
TexasNative

TexasNative

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Thanks for letting us know you have no clue what the law is in Virginia, Hank. But then again, most of us have gotten used to that.

~ Boyd
 
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