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Detained/Harassed by Las Vegas MPD on The Strip during my New Year's trip

JoeSparky

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bennwj wrote:
Why in the hell were you carrying hand cuffs??????


Why don't you ask him why he was wearing shorts in December with a pink polka dotted shirt and purple socks in his sandals?

It isn't illegal to carry hand cuffs!!!!!

Maybe he was going to use them later with his DATE!
 

LRS76251

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[align=left]I hate tobe the one to say this but this something is rotten in denmark with this story. Personally, I'm having a very difficult time believing the OP is an attorney being that he's doing such boneheaded stuff. The facts simply don't add up when you think about it...attorney, political statements with mode of dress, handcuffs, tasers, holsters without guns, givingup the farmwith personal information that shouldn't be given out (I'm a cop and I wouldn't divulge some of the stuff he's divulging), and a whole bunch of other stuff. This story stinks bad!! This guy's MO screams "I'm looking for someone to TDO my butt because I don't have a brain in my head". I can see a mall ninja doing something this boneheaded...but NOT a trained attorney. He must have slept through his law school classes.[/align]
 

ghostrider

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LRS76251 wrote:
[align=left]I hate tobe the one to say this but this something is rotten in denmark with this story. Personally, I'm having a very difficult time believing the OP is an attorney being that he's doing such boneheaded stuff. The facts simply don't add up when you think about it...attorney, political statements with mode of dress, handcuffs, tasers, holsters without guns, givingup the farmwith personal information that shouldn't be given out (I'm a cop and I wouldn't divulge some of the stuff he's divulging), and a whole bunch of other stuff. This story stinks bad!! This guy's MO screams "I'm looking for someone to TDO my butt because I don't have a brain in my head". I can see a mall ninja doing something this boneheaded...but NOT a trained attorney. He must have slept through his law school classes.[/align]
I'm not going to say if I believe him or not, but I was thinking something along similar lines.

A lawyer who gives his SS # (among other info) to the officers. Just doesn't fit IMHO, but hey...
 

kurtmax_0

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LRS76251 wrote:
I can see a mall ninja doing something this boneheaded...but NOT a trained attorney.

1: Regardless of whether this person is an attorney OR a mall ninja OR both, he was still wronged.

2: Many attorneys get in trouble for all kinds of things. They slip up just like 'normal' people. Also, you don't need common sense to be an attorney.
 

varminter22

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Fallon, Nevada, USA
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kurtmax_0 wrote:
LRS76251 wrote:
I can see a mall ninja doing something this boneheaded...but NOT a trained attorney.

1: Regardless of whether this person is an attorney OR a mall ninja OR both, he was still wronged.

2: Many attorneys get in trouble for all kinds of things. They slip up just like 'normal' people. Also, you don't need common sense to be an attorney.
Agreed.

And the "naysayers" points are well taken also.

However, most of us have predicated our responses upon the assumption the original poster being credible and truthful - until proven otherwise.

After all, in this forum, its simply "discussion," right?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
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bennwj wrote:
Why in the hell were you carrying hand cuffs??????
It's 'Vegas, as in "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" maybe?:shock:

I'll admit I probably wouldn't be carrying handcuffs, outside of a committed inter-personal relation with someone of the opposite sex, but that's just me. At it's not illegal, immoral, nor fattening, I don't see how his choice of daily carry items denies me or anyone else of their rights.
 

Streetbikerr6

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389
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Folsom, , USA
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LRS76251 wrote:
[align=left]I hate tobe the one to say this but this something is rotten in denmark with this story. Personally, I'm having a very difficult time believing the OP is an attorney being that he's doing such boneheaded stuff. The facts simply don't add up when you think about it...attorney, political statements with mode of dress, handcuffs, tasers, holsters without guns, givingup the farmwith personal information that shouldn't be given out (I'm a cop and I wouldn't divulge some of the stuff he's divulging), and a whole bunch of other stuff. This story stinks bad!! This guy's MO screams "I'm looking for someone to TDO my butt because I don't have a brain in my head". I can see a mall ninja doing something this boneheaded...but NOT a trained attorney. He must have slept through his law school classes.[/align]
Bonehead or not he still has rights. I am no attorney although if you say you are a cop then you must know if his rights were violated. I did not see you comment on anything other than his character. So if you may bear with me for a second and 100% assume that every part ofhis story is true, please enlighten us if his rights were in any way violated, wecan alljudge his character for ourselves.
 

Streetbikerr6

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chrsjhnsn wrote:
when did the OP call himself a lawyer?
I thought it was the cop being sarcastic.

He didnt. His friend Jon said

(paraphrasing) "Great job.. great job..now I know your a lawyer.."

So it is left for us to assume his friend either means he knows the law like a lawyer or he really is in fact a lawyer, I assume his friend just means he knows the law well. I would think this guy would state to us all that he passed the bar somewhere if he was in fact a lawyer. None the less, is there ANYONE in the chat that can tell us his rights were violated? To me it seems her digging in the pockets may have crossed the line though maybe the "dagger" was sticking out of his pocket at the time in plain view?
 

ghostrider

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Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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Streetbikerr6 wrote:
chrsjhnsn wrote: "
when did the OP call himself a lawyer? I thought it was the cop being sarcastic. "

He didnt.

His friend Jon said (paraphrasing) "Great job.. great job..now I know your a lawyer.."

So it is left for us to assume his friend either means he knows the law like a lawyer or he really is in fact a lawyer, I assume his friend just means he knows the law well. I would think this guy would state to us all that he passed the bar somewhere if he was in fact a lawyer. None the less, is there ANYONE in the chat that can tell us his rights were violated? To me it seems her digging in the pockets may have crossed the line though maybe the "dagger" was sticking out of his pocket at the time in plain view
This is incorrect. The OP clearly stated that, "he is a lawyer" on page 4 of this thread.


TommyJ1912 wrote:
Hello All,

I apologize for not responding to everyone's comments until now. I've been ill with a cold for the past couple of days. Also, I wanted to take the time to try to address as many issues as I could in one post.

First off, I want to thank everyone for their support and encouragement in this matter. Despite some differences of opinion, we all have a common interest in protecting our Second Amendment (and, for most of us, state constitutional) right to keep and bear arms in defense of one's self and liberty (not to mention the rest of our natural rights). I'm glad that my post of this incident has spurred a great debate amongst the members of this forum.

Second, I need to clarify a few things. As mentioned by my friend Jon in the transcript, I am a lawyer (currently non-practicing in AZ). I'm a graduate of Syracuse University - College of Law. I've also been a strong political advocate since the age of 16 when I first joined the Libertarian Party and several libertarian-oriented groups. As an undergrad at Brandeis University (a nearly 100% left-liberal campus), I was Editor-in-Chief of the university's only libertarian magazine ("Freedom Magazine") and founder/president of the first Libertarian Party club on campus, as well as on the board of Students for the Second Amendment. I was instrumental in bringing a number of notable speakers to campus including Dinesh D'Souza, Ann Coulter, and my personal favorite - Charlton Heston (who received perhaps the largest protest on campus in recent memory; please read a transcript of his fantastic speech here - http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/5_May/mayhes.htm).

I don't state all of the above for vanity or to stroke my own ego. I merely wish to point out that I am a strong advocate for liberty everyday of my life. So, in addition to the fact that I had my holster on for OCing while in Nevada, I wore it empty inside of places that are not firearm friendly (i.e., the casinos - none of which had any posted signs outside the premises banning weapons) to show my support for gun rights and to spark conversations/debates with people who were most likely not from firearm permissive states (or even countries for that matter). I was not wearing it with the intention of getting into a LEO encounter to file a lawsuit or because I'm some sort of "goof"/"showboat." I can't tell you how many wonderful experiences I've had talking to total strangers about gov't, taxes, politics, etc. They might not always agree with my viewpoint, but I often expose them to sides of a debate that they've never even heard before.

During this last trip to Las Vegas, I visited several casinos while displaying the holster including: Startosphere, Wynn, Casino Royale, and El Cortez. I received some definite looks from security at Casino Royale, but none that I could detect from the other establishments. All told, not a single security guard even approached me to ask if I was armed. I know that several dealers at these casinos noticed exactly what was on my hip, but they were entirely fine with it and I even spoke to a couple about firearm laws, models, etc. If anything, it's the t-shirts I wear that get the most attention (bOffensive.com has lots of great ones in the "Freedom" section).

The incident at O'Shea's probably wouldn't have happened save for the story I left out of my original post. About 30 min. before the police first approached me, there was a group of three young women who were on their way out of the casino when they stopped by my side at the craps table. They were all extremely drunk and one of them was in possession of two realistic looking phalli. Without even asking me, she places both dildos inside of the holster and they all tell me they want to take pictures of it, laughing hysterically the entire time. They seem really nice, so I have no objection. After taking the pictures, I ask the girls if they're part of some sort of engagement/bridal party. The woman's deadpan reply was priceless - "No, we just like penises." The players by my side at the craps table couldn't stop laughing. Needless to say, this probably drew a lot of attention to my holster from others at the casino. From what I could gather, it was just a single person's complaint to security that started the ball rolling. Absolutely no one else up to that point had a problem with me or the holster.

Anyway, with regard to the weapons in my possession: Even though O'Shea's had no signs posted, I knew it was a safe bet that I wouldn't be permitted to OC in the casino. So, with no firearm for protection, it's always a good idea to have alternatives at the ready. Even if one carries a firearm, I'm a big proponent of also carrying less lethal options - large crowds could make a firearm tactically unsound and there are plently of situations where using deadly physical force would not be justified, but items like a Taser or pepper spray may be used to repel/pacify an attacker (e.g., simple assault). Before I travel anywhere outside of Arizona, I always research the legality of anything I plan to bring with me. I'll address my possessions one-by-one:

C2 Taser: an excellent alternative to a firearm with an effective range of ~15', but each catridge is only good for one shot (which is why it's best to carry more alternatives); the cartridge can be removed after use for the Taser to act as a regular stun-gun
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.357]

Fox Labs 1.5 oz. "Mean Green" Pepper Spray: effective range of 6'-10' and perhaps the best spray on the market; the green dye easily identifies an attacker (I mistakenly noted it as 4.0 oz. in the original post)
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.375 - note that for all non-natural chemically based OC sprays, NV places a limit on each "cartridge" at 2.0 oz.]

Ka-Bar TDI Model 1480 LE Knife: I basically use this as more of a utility knife, but it is excellent in a close quarters fight, especially to defend against a "gun-grab" situation when OCing with one's weak side hand
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.350 - only belt-buckle and switchblade knives are banned; dirks, daggers, and machetes may not be concealed]

Grip Kubotan: again, I basically use this as a keychain, but it may also be used in a close quarters fight (one mistake I made in my original post is that this model is made from solid aluminum - I have others that are plastic); here's the actual one I had on me - http://www.defensedevices.com/gripkubaton.html
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.350 - note that no mention is made of a "kubotan" by name and, as you can clearly see from the picture in the above link, it is not similar in any way to any other weapon noted in the statute - to call it a "dagger" as the police did is total B.S. - it has a large, bulbous, tapered head with no sharp point and absolutely no blade or sharp edges]

ASP Hinged Handcuffs: these are certainly not a weapon per se and not something I normally carry; let me be clear - I have no desire to act as a LEO, nor engage in "kinky acts;" however, I knew that I'd be walking along The Strip at a very late hour on several nights (much later than I'd normally be out and about) and handcuffs provide a little bit of added insurance to restrain an attacker, particularly if I do not have a firearm on me (which I didn't since I was darting directly in and out of the casinos)

Olympus WS-331 DVR: as noted by several members of this forum, a DVR is a necessity for anyone who OCs (especially if you're from a rights-restrictive state) and is hardly a "screwball" idea; OCing will make you stand out from everyone else and lead to a possible LEO encounter - should that encounter "go bad" for one reason or another, without the DVR, it will just be your word against the LEO - who do you think a prosecutor/judge is more likely to believe?; plus, mine also acts as an MP3 player and "jump drive" for storing computer files

So, that's a little more background on myself and the events surrounding this incident...

Now, what to do about the future? I've contacted a number of NV law firms that are listed by the state bar under federal civil suits. I haven't come across a single firm that's ever filed a 42 U.S.C. 1983 suit. If anyone has any contacts that I can explore for firms in NV or AZ, I would appreciate it if you could PM me that information. My general feeling is that it will be extremely difficult to find a firm that will take this case on contingency. While it might be clear to almost all of us that the LVMPD did not have sufficient "reasonable suspicion" to initiate a Terry stop in this incident, the threshold for the standard, while not quantifiable, is quite low and prosecutors I have spoken with did advocate a position similar to Thundar's post (empty holster=possible concealed weapon). :( The thing that does add strength to the case is the Sgt.'s acknowledgment that OC is completely legal and his subsequent threat to detain myself (or anyone else) who lawfully OCs.
Emphasis mine.
 

Streetbikerr6

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Woops. My mistake I didnt get that far.



Luckily he was in Nevada, because in California if you were recording all that without letting the officers know you would be violating the wiretap law. I wonder if a hidden video camera would still violate that law?
 

chrsjhnsn

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La Paz county, Arizona.
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hmmm, my bad, its a lot to digest.
Ummm, I'm pretty sure you can record a conversation with police during a stop in CALI because of the assumption of no privacy, I had a conversation with a cop about it during the "Nordyke V King" calguns event
 

Winchester63

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I open carry all over town, except the Strip and Glitter Gulch...because it will draw attention from 5-0. I do carry concealed to every casino I frequent though, because I always want my side-arm with me.

Northwest Las Vegas see me carrybut don't give me any static at all. Cith of North Las Vegas has never hassled me either.

Political statements and freedom of speech notwithstanding,casinos are private property and they can boot you out for carrying.

Enjoy your rights, butdo so smartly.
 

Count

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It sound to me like Tommy's problem was that because his open holster was empty they concluded he must have the handgun concealed somewhere. Solution: ALWAYS HAVE YOUR HANDGUN IN THE HOLSTER, EMPTY HOLSTERS MAKE YOU WONDER WHERE THE GUN IS!!!
 
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