Kloutier
Regular Member
Keep up the good fight! Write to walmart corp if you need to.
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Disclosure And Disarmed
- Thread starter Beretta92FSLady
- Start date
Metalhead47
Regular Member
Hmm... monday mornin' QBing of course, but I wonder if in a situation like that one could record the footed secondhand with a phone cam or similar?
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
Keep in mind I am in Utah, and the incident happened here. I talked with the Sgt. on the phone today and they are not going to press charges against him criminally, because he made a reasonable attempt at making sure that I did not leave, while he "investigated" whether I was a thief or not. Apparently under Utah law, employees can use reasonable means of force to stop you from leaving. I am glad that the employee's reasonable means stopped at grabbing me and pushing me to the ground. Of course, he was wrong, I am not a thief.
The only recourse is civil.
The only recourse is civil.
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Kloutier
Regular Member
Well take it to civil and WIN!
Utah_Patriot
Regular Member
That's not for the police to decide you have the right to have the charges pressed. You sign the Citation and leave it up to the judge to make that decision.
Police are what we call a public servant I guarantee if what the greeter did to you. You did to a police officer you would be charged for assault. You can demand he be cited and let them know you will sign the citation.
This is a police officer not wanting to follow up on this case.
Police are what we call a public servant I guarantee if what the greeter did to you. You did to a police officer you would be charged for assault. You can demand he be cited and let them know you will sign the citation.
This is a police officer not wanting to follow up on this case.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
I repeated this to the Sgt. about pressing charges. He said that the man acted within the law. And that it wasn't unreasonable. I always thought it was the judges responsibility to determine whether it was reasonable or not, the officer just writes the citation. I am sorry, the judge if he pleads, but the jury if he doesn't.
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utbagpiper
Banned
Maybe two sides even to this story
The determination on whether to file charges lies with the city or county (IE district) prosecutor, not with the police. Obviously, the prosecutor is going to listen to the police, but they are not the final say.
I have to admit I am torn here. I am told by what I consider to be a reliable source that at major big box stores, 10% of the cost of every item goes to cover losses from shoplifting. I don't like theft, I don't like thieves, I don't like being stolen from. So I'm very supportive of the rights of property owners to take reasonable measures to secure their property from theft, including measures to prevent shoplifters from fleeing the scene. Sad reality is that if the thief leaves the store he is not likely to get caught. Stolen plates are common, for example.
I shop at Costco and greatly appreciate the low prices for good quality products. I'm sure that the receipt checkers at the exits play an important part of that. So I don't mind a bit that I'm expected to show a valid receipt before walking out of the store with any item.
The exchange cashier should have given you something to indicate that you owned the merchandise you were taking out of the store. Either an exchange receipt, or some kind of note or sticker to indicate you were not attempting to steal something. Of course, various shoplifting schemes are the very reason that exchange receipts are hard to come by.
The security person who stopped you should have promptly identified himself as store security (if he didn't).
Having done that, I think you were in the wrong to demand to leave the store without a receipt and without having cleared the matter up.
When you said you had exchanged the item, the guard should have asked you to accompany him back to the exchange desk to confirm that. But as a mature adult, you should have offered that solution rather than attempting to leave the store with what might reasonably be suspected as being stolen merchandise.
I hate to see physical force be used in such cases or for someone to be pushed down. And I suspect there is a good chance the guard is going to lose his job over it.
At the same time, I believe property owners including merchants have a right to do more than yell, "Stop...or I'll yell stop again."
You may wish to speak with the city or county attorney about the possibility of assault charges. The guard may well be an off duty or former cop being given undue "professional courtesy" because of his day job. You may also wish to contact a civil attorney, especially if you have suffered any harm that requires a doctor's or chiropractor's visit.
At the same time, I hope each of us will consider how to de-escalate these types of situations before they reach the point of possibly being justified or required to use deadly force.
If I may offer a few suggestions:
1-Avoid such situations whenever possible by taking your receipt with you.
2-If you don't have a receipt, be sure that you tell every employee you see between your car and the exchange/customer service counter that you are bringing an item back for exchange.
3-Be sure to get something (exchange receipt, sticker, etc) that indicates the item you are leaving with is actually yours. If such is not available, consider asking the exchange clerk to walk you out. Be sure to get and remember the name of the exchange clerk.
4-If confronted, first confirm the ID of whomever is stopping you if you are in doubt. "Are you a store employee?"
5-Provide the receipt or other proof of ownership. Or, if such is not available, suggest that you both walk back over to the exchange counter, talk to (by name) whomever handled the exchange, and straighten it out.
I note that some stores are better laid out, physically, to handle exchanges than are others. Home Depot and Lowes, for example, have exchange/return desks immediately inside the entrance. Walmarts, however, tend to handle everything well inside the store which is a bit concerning if you no longer have your original receipt.
I will probably get flamed for defending, in the slightest, the conduct of the store employee. I point out how often posters here have extolled Texas use of deadly force law that allows use of deadly force to defend property in certain cases. I am not suggesting stores start shooting people. I am merely pointing out that none of us like to be victims of theft; indeed, whether through higher prices to cover losses or higher insurance premiums, or just higher taxes and general feelings of insecurity, we all pay for every theft that is committed.
Not only should we think about how best to avoid and if necessary de-escalate these kinds of situations, we should also do our part to help make it easy for shop owners to avoid being victims of theft.
Charles
The determination on whether to file charges lies with the city or county (IE district) prosecutor, not with the police. Obviously, the prosecutor is going to listen to the police, but they are not the final say.
I have to admit I am torn here. I am told by what I consider to be a reliable source that at major big box stores, 10% of the cost of every item goes to cover losses from shoplifting. I don't like theft, I don't like thieves, I don't like being stolen from. So I'm very supportive of the rights of property owners to take reasonable measures to secure their property from theft, including measures to prevent shoplifters from fleeing the scene. Sad reality is that if the thief leaves the store he is not likely to get caught. Stolen plates are common, for example.
I shop at Costco and greatly appreciate the low prices for good quality products. I'm sure that the receipt checkers at the exits play an important part of that. So I don't mind a bit that I'm expected to show a valid receipt before walking out of the store with any item.
The exchange cashier should have given you something to indicate that you owned the merchandise you were taking out of the store. Either an exchange receipt, or some kind of note or sticker to indicate you were not attempting to steal something. Of course, various shoplifting schemes are the very reason that exchange receipts are hard to come by.
The security person who stopped you should have promptly identified himself as store security (if he didn't).
Having done that, I think you were in the wrong to demand to leave the store without a receipt and without having cleared the matter up.
When you said you had exchanged the item, the guard should have asked you to accompany him back to the exchange desk to confirm that. But as a mature adult, you should have offered that solution rather than attempting to leave the store with what might reasonably be suspected as being stolen merchandise.
I hate to see physical force be used in such cases or for someone to be pushed down. And I suspect there is a good chance the guard is going to lose his job over it.
At the same time, I believe property owners including merchants have a right to do more than yell, "Stop...or I'll yell stop again."
You may wish to speak with the city or county attorney about the possibility of assault charges. The guard may well be an off duty or former cop being given undue "professional courtesy" because of his day job. You may also wish to contact a civil attorney, especially if you have suffered any harm that requires a doctor's or chiropractor's visit.
At the same time, I hope each of us will consider how to de-escalate these types of situations before they reach the point of possibly being justified or required to use deadly force.
If I may offer a few suggestions:
1-Avoid such situations whenever possible by taking your receipt with you.
2-If you don't have a receipt, be sure that you tell every employee you see between your car and the exchange/customer service counter that you are bringing an item back for exchange.
3-Be sure to get something (exchange receipt, sticker, etc) that indicates the item you are leaving with is actually yours. If such is not available, consider asking the exchange clerk to walk you out. Be sure to get and remember the name of the exchange clerk.
4-If confronted, first confirm the ID of whomever is stopping you if you are in doubt. "Are you a store employee?"
5-Provide the receipt or other proof of ownership. Or, if such is not available, suggest that you both walk back over to the exchange counter, talk to (by name) whomever handled the exchange, and straighten it out.
I note that some stores are better laid out, physically, to handle exchanges than are others. Home Depot and Lowes, for example, have exchange/return desks immediately inside the entrance. Walmarts, however, tend to handle everything well inside the store which is a bit concerning if you no longer have your original receipt.
I will probably get flamed for defending, in the slightest, the conduct of the store employee. I point out how often posters here have extolled Texas use of deadly force law that allows use of deadly force to defend property in certain cases. I am not suggesting stores start shooting people. I am merely pointing out that none of us like to be victims of theft; indeed, whether through higher prices to cover losses or higher insurance premiums, or just higher taxes and general feelings of insecurity, we all pay for every theft that is committed.
Not only should we think about how best to avoid and if necessary de-escalate these kinds of situations, we should also do our part to help make it easy for shop owners to avoid being victims of theft.
Charles
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Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
The Utah Code reads that the retailer must have probable cause to affect a detention. Seems to me there is a lot of gray area. I would appreciate any court cases from anyone...I am still looking for any type of ruling regarding a similar case.
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TechnoWeenie
Regular Member
+39572395723
I get sideways glances all the time @ Cabela's and other gun stores when the first thing I do when I get a gun is clear it, even if they've just cleared it in front of me..
It's a good habit...
I realized that it may be more of a habit when I let someone shoot my AR, I then had them clear it.. I then had them load a fresh magazine, and charge the weapon, making sure it was on safe, showing them how to hand someone a loaded firearm... My intent was to immediately send some rounds downrange.. Instead, I immediately dropped the mag and cleared the weapon... only to pick up the magazine a split second later and charge the weapon before letting rounds fly.. :lol:
PARADOX-SEV
New member
Video
Beretta92FSLady
You will still need to go through the police to get the video from the store. As an Asset Protection manager here in Utah I sometimes deal with situations similar to yours. The store has a legal obligation to preserve any video in a case such as yours but only has to give it to the police or lawyers if they serve a subpoena. I can assure you if the incident happened anywhere near the entrance or exit doors it was captured on at least 2 cameras. The employee who stopped you will lose his job as only salaried managers or asset protection associates are allowed to make a apprehension. Even though I work for the same company if everything you said is true then I hope you take them to the cleaners because they were in the wrong.
Beretta92FSLady
You will still need to go through the police to get the video from the store. As an Asset Protection manager here in Utah I sometimes deal with situations similar to yours. The store has a legal obligation to preserve any video in a case such as yours but only has to give it to the police or lawyers if they serve a subpoena. I can assure you if the incident happened anywhere near the entrance or exit doors it was captured on at least 2 cameras. The employee who stopped you will lose his job as only salaried managers or asset protection associates are allowed to make a apprehension. Even though I work for the same company if everything you said is true then I hope you take them to the cleaners because they were in the wrong.
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hornett22
Regular Member
Wal Mart blows.
I do not shop there and cannot believe anyone else does.
I hope you take them for some loot.They have plenty.
I do not shop there and cannot believe anyone else does.
I hope you take them for some loot.They have plenty.
Metalhead47
Regular Member
Umm... maybe because we like to save money and/or get everything in one convenient stop?
JoeSparky
Centurion
The implication of your post seems to suggest an action that is ILLEGAL in every state nationwide and is not approved of on this board! But, it does seem to be supported by some in Congress!
I have no animosity against anyone who has successfully traversed the minefield of state and federal regulations and is still able to make a profit and providing employment for others without violating the law in the process. It is a shame we as a country make this so difficult.
I don't subscribe to nor do I support "Class Warfare" which is exactly what many of the liberals and progressives are busy pushing in the continued efforts to "divide and conquer." We should all support success! If you don't like the success of one then go and out-success them-- it is called Free enterprise!
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Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
From what I have been told I would have to make a request through the court for the video, since the officer did not take the footage for evidence. At the beginning of next week I am going to start calling around more. It has been hard to get into contact with anyone because of Holiday.
PARADOX-SEV
New member
Contacts
Let me know if you need any contact information from legal/asset protection side of Wal-mart.inc
Let me know if you need any contact information from legal/asset protection side of Wal-mart.inc
gravedigger
Regular Member
Too much of the story is missing for me to draw any conclusions. Obviously something led up to the assault, and you left out all of the details. Did you cut him off on the way to work? Beat him to a parking space? Sleep with his girlfriend? An employee doesn't usually just walk up to another employee without <b>provocation</b> and assault him.
MKEgal
Regular Member
utbagpiper said:
Every "receipt checker" I've ever encountered does nothing more than make a mark on the receipt. Perhaps they check to be sure it's the current date, but they certainly don't go through all my purchases and look up the prices to make sure I haven't been overcharged, or compare the receipt item by item to what's in my bag / cart to ensure I haven't managed to steal something between the register & the exit (what's in there to steal, anyway?) or pay for something low-priced & switch it for a better item.
Actually doing either of those things might have some effect on some theft, though there are employee-assisted methods that will not be caught by anything other than closely watching the register & clerk, which is just as time-consuming & inefficient as real receipt-checking. Most "shrinkage" is due to employees, anyway, so inconveniencing customers is a doubly bad way to face the problem - wastes time & money, while ticking off the people who pay your bills.
Once I've paid for items, they're mine. No store employee has any right to see them again. If they think I've stolen something, they can call police... then apologize profu$ely when the police exonerate me.
When I encounter 'receipt checkers', I either ignore them, tell them "no thanks", or (if I'm sure I won't need the receipt) hand them the receipt & keep going.
http://consumerist.com/2006/11/ask-the-consumerist-do-i-have-to-let-stores-check-my-receipt.html
http://www.thelegality.com/2008/03/...-the-legality-of-compulsory-receipt-checking/
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
I am not an employee at Walmart, I was a customer. Hmmm, haven't seen his girlfriend, so I am not going to comment on that one until I get more information...looks aren;t everything but you know.
Vegassteve
Regular Member
You missed the point. First I would not have taken the gun back from or handed it to the officer, they can take it off me and reholster it for me. Second I was speaking in terms of not touching my firearm near a cop. Trigger happy cops are all too uncommon.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
You are right, there are trigger-happy LEO's out there. You still run into the same issue whether they hand you your sidearm or holster it for you, you are taking possession of your sidearm and you do not know if it is loaded or not.
Hand me the sidearm with "open," so we can both see that it is clear....I close the slide, holster, then he hands me my mag. +1.
He had asked me if I had any other "weapons" on my person, I had a "utility knife." He requested that I hand it to him. I am not sure what the policy is here in SLC, but he might not have been able to search me because of our opposing genders.