Do you want to win or lose your OC fight?

[gsx1138]

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Morris wrote:

Morris, thanks for replying to my question. Not to change the topic, just a small side trip. I would be interested in your thoughts on tape recording conversations with LEOs. It has been brought up on several threads and since we have you here I think it kinda fits in with this topic. I would like to here your view.
---------------------------
Ghost,

I have no issues about it personally. I know some in my career do but in the day and age of YouTube and camera phones, you have to assume someone is video and/or audio taping you, legal or not. As more cameras get into patrol cars in this area, folks will see in an increase in being videotaped (all perfectably legal in conjunction with a traffic stop or performance of duties, per Washington state law).

Speaking of video/audio taping, I know there is a video of me out there somewhere in the Animal Rights wold of contacting a bunch of protestors about their tresspassing. They didn't seem to think I took their videotaping of me seriously enough when I waved to the camera and said, "Am I on TV? WOW! Hi mom!"

One point to make clear to folks: what is legal today can be illegal next legislative session (take cell phone usage, for example).

Haha, that's pretty funny. When I see a LEO telling someone to turn off a camera or recorder all kinds of red flags pop up. Just like we 'should have nothing to hide' then neither should the officer.

I've barely started OC'ing and am kind of nervous about any kind of LEO encounter. However, I know that attitude can get you farther than most people think. I got a speeding ticket 3 months ago and by the time the stop was done I had the Officer apologizing to me for even writing me up. Fact is, I was speeding pretty good and deserved the ticket.

 

[ghosthunter]

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Thanks Morris I value your view.

 

[Marty Hayes]

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44Brent wrote:

Marty Hayes wrote:

44Brent wrote

Marty Hayes gave a generalized complaint about "jackasses" who open carry

Really? Please be so kind as to point that out. I know I am getting old and feeble, but I don't think I would have mis-remembered such a caustic remark.

Also, am going out of town for a couple of days and will be without computer, but will be happy to continue this discussion when I return. Perhaps by then, you will have been able to locate the offending remark.

Go back and look at your original post. You wrote:

But these bacon bits will become more resistant to your rights and indeed, champion the elimination of them because someone decided to be a jackass.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"Er, um, perhaps you might want to go back and look at who the author of the original post was. (Hint, it wasn't me).

 

[44Brent]

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I stand corrected. Morris referred to some OCer's as "jackasses", not Marty.

My apologies to Marty.

 

[Marty Hayes]

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44Brent wrote:

I stand corrected. Morris referred to some OCer's as "jackasses", not Marty.

My apologies to Marty.

Accepted.

 

[BobCav]

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Laws have nothing to do with right and wrong, merely a poor reflection of what is either the current trend in society or of the vocal few.

Right and wrong cannot be legislated.

Legislation is merely a reflection of how close we are as a society to one...

And how far we are from the other.

 

[irfner]

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joeroket wrote:

irfner wrote:

Citizen wrote:

By the way, I'm convinced we need to change from gun rights to defense rights. As in the human right to self-defense. He who controls the terminology controls the argument, as the saying goes.

I disagree. The constitution says the right to keep and bear arms. It does not mention self defense and although thatis a worthyuse of a fire armitis not the only one.

But the Heller ruling was very clear that the 2nd protected the right of a person to keep and bear arms inside his home for self defense.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you but just wanted to interject a twist.

I think the wording isat least partly because that is what the Hellercase was about. Washington DC prevented Hellers protection in the home and he sued on that basis.DC's action was ruled unconstitutional. I didn't see where they limited the second amendmentto protection in the home they affirmed that it applied to self defense in the home not just military preparedness. The good part though was the second amendment was ruled an individual right.

 

[David.Car]

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Citizen wrote:

Also, Iwould like to point out that there is a difference betweenpolice support for OC andtolerance for OC. They may tolerate it after we gracefully tell them what the law is, but I doubt grace will buy support. Ifa given police officerdidn't alreadypersonally support it or 2A enough to get past their CC-only attitude, I don't think being nice about it is going to change their opinion.

+1 +1 +1

Nailed it right on the head here. A police officer isn't going to change his/her mind just because you have correctedthem on the legalities of OC. He/She is already a supporter or already set in his/her own beliefs.

In the end we shouldn't be striving for tolerance, or police support, or anyones support. The only goal is for it to be accepted as a normal part of every day life. Carrying a weapon has been accepted in the history of man for hundreds upon hundreds of years, but in all our so called wisdom, it has become taboo.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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0



David.Car wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Also, Iwould like to point out that there is a difference betweenpolice support for OC andtolerance for OC. They may tolerate it after we gracefully tell them what the law is, but I doubt grace will buy support. Ifa given police officerdidn't alreadypersonally support it or 2A enough to get past their CC-only attitude, I don't think being nice about it is going to change their opinion.

+1 +1 +1

Nailed it right on the head here. A police officer isn't going to change his/her mind just because you have correctedthem on the legalities of OC. He/She is already a supporter or already set in his/her own beliefs.

In the end we shouldn't be striving for tolerance, or police support, or anyones support. The only goal is for it to be accepted as a normal part of every day life. Carrying a weapon has been accepted in the history of man for hundreds upon hundreds of years, but in all our so called wisdom, it has become taboo.

The LEO may not change his belief about OC but the next OCer he deals with he better change his ways because he can no longer say "I didn't know. No one told me."

You damn well better strive for the tolerance of LEOs and civilians,if you don't they powers that be will require CC only as that is part of this reasonable restrictions they have available to them. Without the tolerance of others, this is a losing battle and your attitude will cost us more than the antis. If we don't take the time and effort to educate others, no one else will.Taboos change with the winds of an ever evolving society. If you want to change them back, you need to educate others to acquire their support or at least their tolerance. Tell them to screw off, this is my right will just make them you enemy, which we have way to many of already.

 

[David.Car]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

The LEO may not change his belief about OC but the next OCer he deals with he better change his ways because he can no longer say "I didn't know. No one told me."

You damn well better strive for the tolerance of LEOs and civilians,if you don't they powers that be will require CC only as that is part of this reasonable restrictions they have available to them. Without the tolerance of others, this is a losing battle and your attitude will cost us more than the antis. If we don't take the time and effort to educate others, no one else will.Taboos change with the winds of an ever evolving society. If you want to change them back, you need to educate others to acquire their support or at least their tolerance. Tell them to screw off, this is my right will just make them you enemy, which we have way to many of already.

Since when was "I didn't know. No one told me" an excuse for violation anything? Never as far as I know. I can't rob someone and say Oh! I didn't know!

Police are no different in that matter. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Now moving on, I never said you had to tell a police officer to screw off. But being a lamb and just doing everything they say and kissing their *** until they leave youalone is not the right thing to do either.

There is a middle ground alternative where you can be respectful but still protect your rights, and hopefully leave enough of a lasting impression on that LEO that he won't do the wrong thing again.

The answer isn't being nice, or being an ***. The best answer is to just be informed and to protect yourself.

Knowledge is power.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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David.Car wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

The LEO may not change his belief about OC but the next OCer he deals with he better change his ways because he can no longer say "I didn't know. No one told me."

You damn well better strive for the tolerance of LEOs and civilians,if you don't they powers that be will require CC only as that is part of this reasonable restrictions they have available to them. Without the tolerance of others, this is a losing battle and your attitude will cost us more than the antis. If we don't take the time and effort to educate others, no one else will.Taboos change with the winds of an ever evolving society. If you want to change them back, you need to educate others to acquire their support or at least their tolerance. Tell them to screw off, this is my right will just make them you enemy, which we have way to many of already.

Since when was "I didn't know. No one told me" an excuse for violation anything? Never as far as I know. I can't rob someone and say Oh! I didn't know!

Police are no different in that matter. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Now moving on, I never said you had to tell a police officer to screw off. But being a lamb and just doing everything they say and kissing their *** until they leave youalone is not the right thing to do either.

There is a middle ground alternative where you can be respectful but still protect your rights, and hopefully leave enough of a lasting impression on that LEO that he won't do the wrong thing again.

The answer isn't being nice, or being an ***. The best answer is to just be informed and to protect yourself.

Knowledge is power.

Cops us the I didn't know all the time and unless it ends up in court their departments let them off. You areally need to get closer to reality if you think copsare treated like the rest of us. It doesn't happen. Should they be held to the same standard or even a high standard that the everydaycitizen, Yes! Are they NO! You are doing something not seen by the average person or cop for that matter. If you want the action accepted you need to educate them. I've never been rostedby a cop while wearing a gun. Had plenty of contacts an everyone of them was pleasant for myself and the cop because I wasn't a bullhead nitwit insisting on he not ask for ID or a CPL. Your way makes enemies (we don't need anymore of those). My way makes the at least tolerant of us and the way we carry.

I agree, knowledge is power but how you use that power is very important and your way alienates others. Your kind of knowledge is gonna make your life a rough road.

 

[David.Car]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Cops us the I didn't know all the time and unless it ends up in court their departments let them off. You areally need to get closer to reality if you think copsare treated like the rest of us. It doesn't happen. Should they be held to the same standard or even a high standard that the everydaycitizen, Yes! Are they NO! You are doing something not seen by the average person or cop for that matter. If you want the action accepted you need to educate them. I've never been rostedby a cop while wearing a gun. Had plenty of contacts an everyone of them was pleasant for myself and the cop because I wasn't a bullhead nitwit insisting on he not ask for ID or a CPL. Your way makes enemies (we don't need anymore of those). My way makes the at least tolerant of us and the way we carry.

I agree, knowledge is power but how you use that power is very important and your way alienates others. Your kind of knowledge is gonna make your life a rough road.

I think a lot of what we are saying is arguing for the same thing just in a different way. I am not talking about throwing the law into a police officers face or refusing everything. I am the kind of person that if they ask I will without hesitation hand over my license and CPL because I don't want to make waves over something unneccesary. But if a LEO starts to than try to get you to carry concealed, or if it ever should happen, take it to the next step with dissarming you and detaining you, it is no longer (IMO) the right time to be my happy go lucky. Now this doesn't mean fighting or yelling or calling names. But you can take a more aggressive stance without being an ass.

If a LEO wants to take my weapon away from me while I am not at any fault, it is not going to happen without him giving me a legitimate legal reason. And "for my own safety" is not a legitimate reason. If he can not provide to me a reasonable suspicion or an explanation of something criminal I have done, he may get my weapon from me, but he and his department are going to hear much more about it from a lawyer.

I don't think cops are bad guys. But I am more than willing to go the route of ending the conversation with a "Am I being detained?" and walking off.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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David.Car wrote:

I think a lot of what we are saying is arguing for the same thing just in a different way. I am not talking about throwing the law into a police officers face or refusing everything. I am the kind of person that if they ask I will without hesitation hand over my license and CPL because I don't want to make waves over something unneccesary. But if a LEO starts to than try to get you to carry concealed, or if it ever should happen, take it to the next step with dissarming you and detaining you, it is no longer (IMO) the right time to be my happy go lucky. Now this doesn't mean fighting or yelling or calling names. But you can take a more aggressive stance without being an ass.

If a LEO wants to take my weapon away from me while I am not at any fault, it is not going to happen without him giving me a legitimate legal reason. And "for my own safety" is not a legitimate reason. If he can not provide to me a reasonable suspicion or an explanation of something criminal I have done, he may get my weapon from me, but he and his department are going to hear much more about it from a lawyer.

I don't think cops are bad guys. But I am more than willing to go the route of ending the conversation with a "Am I being detained?" and walking off.

So it appears we do agree. But I never lecture or talk down to an officer, it tends to totally piss them off. Never had a cop tell me I couldn't OC. Whether the encounter was on the street orin a social setting. If a LEO did, I would give them the straight dope for sure. Which isn't easy for me, I don't like teaching others things they should know and don't. But I guess since it has neverhappenedI wasn't thinking along those lines.

Most the cops I know are smart enough to not get into a situation where they get asked "Am I being detained?". I will disagree with the bad cop thing. They are out there being protected by a system that refuses to let the world know they can be wrong.

 

[Agent 47]

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I do value Morris' information voiced here, but I see a great difference between being polite to officers and sitting back and letting them spit on your rights. In an interaction between a OC'er and a cop the cop may break several laws and if the cooperative OC'er just sits back and takes it than the cop will feel more comfortable breaking the law in his next encounter. I allways try to be polite but I will not asist a police officer in breaking the law. So far in all the encounters I have been in the illegal activities on scene are as follows. Illegal activities perpetrated by the cops, Unlawfull search, unlawfull detention unlawfull arrest, Fileing untruthfull police reports, deprivation of rights under color of law. And then, Illegal activities perpetrated by me to incite such activities by the cops,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and there you have it. I say be cooperative on scene be nice bide your time take carefull notes, use an audio recorder and when it is over presue every legal action you can think of against them. that is the best way to ensure that OC gets a good public face and officers who break the law get their commupins.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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Agent 47 wrote:

I do value Morris' information voiced here, but I see a great difference between being polite to officers and sitting back and letting them spit on your rights. In an interaction between a OC'er and a cop the cop may break several laws and if the cooperative OC'er just sits back and takes it than the cop will feel more comfortable breaking the law in his next encounter. I allways try to be polite but I will not asist a police officer in breaking the law. So far in all the encounters I have been in the illegal activities on scene are as follows. Illegal activities perpetrated by the cops, Unlawfull search, unlawfull detention unlawfull arrest, Fileing untruthfull police reports, deprivation of rights under color of law. And then, Illegal activities perpetrated by me to incite such activities by the cops,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and there you have it. I say be cooperative on scene be nice bide your time take carefull notes, use an audio recorder and when it is over presue every legal action you can think of against them. that is the best way to ensure that OC gets a good public face and officers who break the law get their commupins.

You will never win an argument with any cop on the street. Just shut up and let him break the law and then take it up with his supervisor. If that doesn't work there is alway Randy who just loves hammering PDs for being stupid. But on the streetan argument could end you up in cuffs and/or in jail.

 

[Agent 47]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Agent 47 wrote:

I do value Morris' information voiced here, but I see a great difference between being polite to officers and sitting back and letting them spit on your rights. In an interaction between a OC'er and a cop the cop may break several laws and if the cooperative OC'er just sits back and takes it than the cop will feel more comfortable breaking the law in his next encounter. I allways try to be polite but I will not asist a police officer in breaking the law. So far in all the encounters I have been in the illegal activities on scene are as follows. Illegal activities perpetrated by the cops, Unlawfull search, unlawfull detention unlawfull arrest, Fileing untruthfull police reports, deprivation of rights under color of law. And then, Illegal activities perpetrated by me to incite such activities by the cops,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and there you have it. I say be cooperative on scene be nice bide your time take carefull notes, use an audio recorder and when it is over presue every legal action you can think of against them. that is the best way to ensure that OC gets a good public face and officers who break the law get their commupins.

You will never win an argument with any cop on the street. Just shut up and let him break the law and then take it up with his supervisor. If that doesn't work there is alway Randy who just loves hammering PDs for being stupid. But on the streetan argument could end you up in cuffs and/or in jail.

I hope that you quoting me was to show we agree on that point because that is exactly what I was saying.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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Agent 47 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Agent 47 wrote:

I do value Morris' information voiced here, but I see a great difference between being polite to officers and sitting back and letting them spit on your rights. In an interaction between a OC'er and a cop the cop may break several laws and if the cooperative OC'er just sits back and takes it than the cop will feel more comfortable breaking the law in his next encounter. I allways try to be polite but I will not asist a police officer in breaking the law. So far in all the encounters I have been in the illegal activities on scene are as follows. Illegal activities perpetrated by the cops, Unlawfull search, unlawfull detention unlawfull arrest, Fileing untruthfull police reports, deprivation of rights under color of law. And then, Illegal activities perpetrated by me to incite such activities by the cops,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and there you have it. I say be cooperative on scene be nice bide your time take carefull notes, use an audio recorder and when it is over presue every legal action you can think of against them. that is the best way to ensure that OC gets a good public face and officers who break the law get their commupins.

You will never win an argument with any cop on the street. Just shut up and let him break the law and then take it up with his supervisor. If that doesn't work there is alway Randy who just loves hammering PDs for being stupid. But on the streetan argument could end you up in cuffs and/or in jail.

I hope that you quoting me was to show we agree on that point because that is exactly what I was saying.

I didn't say I was disagreeing did I? Just said it in plainer language.