Doj faq is here

[BROKENSPROKET]

Greg, you have not answered the question.

I need statues, if they exist. Or, proof that I can put my AR15 in a case, unloaded, and set it on the passenger seat of my truck.

If you look at the Statute 941.23 and go down to History, case law is cited there. Caselaw is not statutes, but it is IN the statutes.

If you want a clear definite answer, you are not going to one. It is the opinion of most, and even may LEO's, that if it is unloaded and encased and the case is visible, then it is not concealed. If it is out of reach it the case can be concealed. If it is within reach the cae MUST be visible. That is my opinion.

 

[Outdoorsman1]

That is exactly what I will be doing from Nov.1 until I get my permit.

Right now is just stays in it's holster. So, Nov. 1, if I have a way to be compliant with the law without opening myself to the potential of a N.D. that loading and unloading makes possible and not compromise my split secand ability to defend myself or others, I am taking it.



It is my opinion that Open Carry in a vehicle is not a violation of 941.23. It was a violation of 167.31 but not for long.

If I am standing strong side away from an officer, am I carrying concealed? NO.

If I am eating in a restaraunt, sitting in a booth, with my strong side in, am I carrying concealed? NO.

If I go into dressing room or in a bathroom stall, am I carrying conealed? NO.

Just because someone cannot see it, because my firearm is not visible to them at the moment, does not mean I am carring concealed.

If my holster is at 2 o'clock and the officer approaches from the passenger side, is it concealed? IMO, NO.

If I am a leftie and my holster is at 8 o'clock and the officer approaches from either side, is it concealed? IMO, NO.

If it is considered not concealed outside my vehicle, and do not change the location of my firearm when I get in my vehicle, IMO it is not concealed.

If a adjust or add clothing that conceals, or I remove in form my holster and place it my vehicle under the seat, in the glove box or console, there was an action to attempt to conceal it. Simply getting in my vehicle is not an attempt to conceal it, even though it may not be visible. That is MY viewpoint. What we need is Legislation that will clarify this. Legislators draft bills and gov. signs them into law, then our Supreme court can either clarify or prevert it's meaning. The three prong test is far too simplistic and never contemplated our Consitutionally protected right Open Carry.

+ 1
Outdoorsman1

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

Greg, you have not answered the question.

I need statues, if they exist. Or, proof that I can put my AR15 in a case, unloaded, and set it on the passenger seat of my truck.

Laws do not usually permit stuff. So.... you asking for proof that you can put you AR 15 anywhere doesn't exist.

I keep using the example of eating Lasagna on Tuesday nights. No law I have come across has said I can but when I do it, the SWAT team hasn't kicked in the door.

As for the DOJ FAQ, it is purely a guideline. It has no force of law. In other words, if you get arrested for something and bring the FAQ into court, the judge won't even look at it.

As for your AR15 question, there is case law that says out of reach. As to whether that case law is still valid since all the other changes, go ahead and do it and let us know how it turns out.

That all being said, there is no clarity in the law as to what exactly IS legal in a vehicle. The only thing w know for sure is that AFTER 11/1, if we have a permit, you can have a handgun loaded wherever the heck you want inside the car.

The AR15, however, isn't a handgun.

 

[protias]

The AR15, however, isn't a handgun.

Some AR15s are handguns (pistol).

[video=youtube;bM57Bg2decI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM57Bg2decI[/video]

 

[oak1971]

Some AR15s are handguns (pistol).

[video=youtube;bM57Bg2decI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM57Bg2decI[/video]

Tough to conceal though. :lol:

 

[goforlow]

Paul - you are correct, I stated it incorrectly. I was asked this question by a future student.

"does my 'rifle' have to be 'out of reach' if it is unloaded and in a case?"

I understand about the handguns after Nov 1. He had read the DOJ FAQ and asked this question. My response to him was that if it was unloaded and in a case, it is understood that it is not a "concealed" weapon, and he can put it anywhere he wanted in his vehicle. BUT, I need to have a statue to prove if I am incorrect. I DO NOT was to train someone incorrectly!

Thanks again.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

As for the DOJ FAQ, it is purely a guideline. It has no force of law. In other words, if you get arrested for something and bring the FAQ into court, the judge won't even look at it.

My response to him was that if it was unloaded and in a case, it is understood that it is not a "concealed" weapon, and he can put it anywhere he wanted in his vehicle. BUT, I need to have a statue to prove if I am incorrect. I DO NOT was to train someone incorrectly!.

The judge will reference the actual Statute and annotations. The FAQ echos what is printed in the text of annotations under the actual Statute. You do not have to look up case law, all you need to do is look up the actual official Statute. Nothing changes on November 1st regarding the definition of "concealed".
Do your students a huge favor and give them a print out of the actual text. Tell them to ask their lawyer what it means.... Don't simply tell them to do something contrary to the DOJ FAQ. That would be training them incorrectly.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0941.pdf

To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).
A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994)

 

[BROKENSPROKET]

As for your AR15 question, there is case law that says out of reach. As to whether that case law is still valid since all the other changes, go ahead and do it and let us know how it turns out.

Paul, please remember that 'within reach' is only one element of the three prong test this is required to detemine a weapon is concealed. One prong fails and it is not a concealed weapon.

This is a quiz. What are the other two prongs?

If it is 'within reach', it cannot be hidden from ordinary view.

It can be hidden from ordindary view if it is out of reach.