Double Action New "Open Carry" Policy

[dougwg]

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

reidksmith wrote:

I work at another large gun store in the area, near Double Action. And not Firing Line.

I can't speak for DA's OC policy. But I can saythat there are reasons for opposing OC at a gun store that do not apply to other businesses.I have no role in setting our OC policy and cannot pretend to speak for our motives either. But I can offer an employee's perspective to what many consider to be hypocrisy.

There are many reasons for us to prefer CC, and I can go into those later. But I suspect that one of the main reasons for shops to prefer CC is the comfort of customers. Customers do not want to feel uncomfortable when they enter our store. This is counter-intuitive, but imagine that you are a new member at a gym. Would you feel more comfortable if the personal trainers had normal body types, or if they all looked as though they were on steroids? You would probably be more comfortable taking body-building advice from someone who looked like you, and who you felt was in your situation - not someone who was so muscular that it looked as though they never had to work out.

Sure, many of our customers are comfortable with firearms and OC would not bother them. But a great deal of them are uncomfortable with firearms and we, as a range, often serve as their first introduction to firearms. We don't want that introduction to be one of unease. As comfortable as you may feel OC, you must recognize that others do not feel comfortable with it, right? (I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, but in rhetorical sense.)

Yes, in an ideal world, OC would be perfectly acceptable and no one would feel uncomfortable. I don't think that this is the reality yet.

I'm not pretending at all to have all the answers on this discussion, but merely felt that I could contribute something from a different perspective. What are your thoughts?

Welcome to OCDO reidksmith.

Going by your analogy, if I were a new member at your store and I felt uncomfortable with Blacks and Hispanics present, would youtell them to cover their face and arms or leave the store?

OMG thats just stupid, eveyone knows Blacks and Hispanics don't kill people, guns do.

 

[conservative85]

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:shock:

 

[N6ATF]

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So, any gun shop can just as easily put up human-sized posters or cutouts of Oleg Volk's open carriers, with a subtitle "These are our customers - welcome, fellow law-abiding citizens." Or something to that effect, rather than having a sign company immortalize their anti-RTBA policy in resin.

 

[T Vance]

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reidksmith wrote:

There are many reasons for us to prefer CC, and I can go into those later. But I suspect that one of the main reasons for shops to prefer CC is the comfort of customers. Customers do not want to feel uncomfortable when they enter our store. This is counter-intuitive, but imagine that you are a new member at a gym. Would you feel more comfortable if the personal trainers had normal body types, or if they all looked as though they were on steroids? You would probably be more comfortable taking body-building advice from someone who looked like you, and who you felt was in your situation - not someone who was so muscular that it looked as though they never had to work out.

Sure, many of our customers are comfortable with firearms and OC would not bother them. But a great deal of them are uncomfortable with firearms and we, as a range, often serve as their first introduction to firearms. We don't want that introduction to be one of unease. As comfortable as you may feel OC, you must recognize that others do not feel comfortable with it, right? (I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, but in rhetorical sense.)

Yes, in an ideal world, OC would be perfectly acceptable and no one would feel uncomfortable. I don't think that this is the reality yet.

I'm not pretending at all to have all the answers on this discussion, but merely felt that I could contribute something from a different perspective. What are your thoughts?

So do you have any reasons that make sense? Because the one about people feeling unconfortable seeing someone carrying a GUN in a GUN SHOP is kind of ridiculous. Not trying to be a d%^k in my response here either.

Welcome BTW!

 

[EM87]

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reidksmith wrote:

I work at another large gun store in the area, near Double Action. And not Firing Line.

I can't speak for DA's OC policy. But I can say that there are reasons for opposing OC at a gun store that do not apply to other businesses. I have no role in setting our OC policy and cannot pretend to speak for our motives either. But I can offer an employee's perspective to what many consider to be hypocrisy.

There are many reasons for us to prefer CC, and I can go into those later. But I suspect that one of the main reasons for shops to prefer CC is the comfort of customers. Customers do not want to feel uncomfortable when they enter our store. This is counter-intuitive, but imagine that you are a new member at a gym. Would you feel more comfortable if the personal trainers had normal body types, or if they all looked as though they were on steroids? You would probably be more comfortable taking body-building advice from someone who looked like you, and who you felt was in your situation - not someone who was so muscular that it looked as though they never had to work out.

Sure, many of our customers are comfortable with firearms and OC would not bother them. But a great deal of them are uncomfortable with firearms and we, as a range, often serve as their first introduction to firearms. We don't want that introduction to be one of unease. As comfortable as you may feel OC, you must recognize that others do not feel comfortable with it, right? (I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, but in rhetorical sense.)

Yes, in an ideal world, OC would be perfectly acceptable and no one would feel uncomfortable. I don't think that this is the reality yet.

I'm not pretending at all to have all the answers on this discussion, but merely felt that I could contribute something from a different perspective. What are your thoughts?

But don't you think that when walking into a gun shop, customers (whether new or old) would expect to see people with guns?

 

[N6ATF]

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EM87 wrote:

reidksmith wrote:

I work at another large gun store in the area, near Double Action. And not Firing Line.

I can't speak for DA's OC policy. But I can saythat there are reasons for opposing OC at a gun store that do not apply to other businesses.I have no role in setting our OC policy and cannot pretend to speak for our motives either. But I can offer an employee's perspective to what many consider to be hypocrisy.

There are many reasons for us to prefer CC, and I can go into those later. But I suspect that one of the main reasons for shops to prefer CC is the comfort of customers. Customers do not want to feel uncomfortable when they enter our store. This is counter-intuitive, but imagine that you are a new member at a gym. Would you feel more comfortable if the personal trainers had normal body types, or if they all looked as though they were on steroids? You would probably be more comfortable taking body-building advice from someone who looked like you, and who you felt was in your situation - not someone who was so muscular that it looked as though they never had to work out.

Sure, many of our customers are comfortable with firearms and OC would not bother them. But a great deal of them are uncomfortable with firearms and we, as a range, often serve as their first introduction to firearms. We don't want that introduction to be one of unease. As comfortable as you may feel OC, you must recognize that others do not feel comfortable with it, right? (I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, but in rhetorical sense.)

Yes, in an ideal world, OC would be perfectly acceptable and no one would feel uncomfortable. I don't think that this is the reality yet.

I'm not pretending at all to have all the answers on this discussion, but merely felt that I could contribute something from a different perspective. What are your thoughts?

But don't you think that when walking into a gun shop, customers (whether new or old) would expect to see people with guns?

Absolutely not. People in libraries and bookstores are not allowed to carry books around, that would be crazy! And a deadly threat, because after all, the penis mightier than the sword.

 

[SpringerXDacp]

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N6ATF wrote:

SNIP
Absolutely not. People in libraries and bookstores are not allowed to carry books around, that would be crazy! And a deadly threat, because after all, the penis mightier than the sword.

Well, in Michigan, I actually think it's legal, providing you place them under your shirt.

 

[reidksmith]

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Alright, so I kind of expected that sort of response, so now I'll go with the long reason.

First, I'm not trying to make excuses - like I tried to explain, I'm trying to offer another perspective. I understand the goal of the OC community, and I have been familiar with that for a very long time.I have given newspaper interviews, radio interviews, and done live QA panels to support concealed carry. I think it's fair to say that I am a pro-gunner, tried and true. I do not oppose OC, but I choose not to practice it. I think we can all agree that it is up to everyone to choose OC or CC. I choose CC, but I'll fight to preserve your right to OC.

That said, it's safe to say that everyone here is a safehandler of loaded firearms. However, many customers are not. I've been muzzled by loaded handguns on multiple occasions. Many customers, again, are not as comfortable with firearms as you may believe. Just yesterday, I had a customer who was purchasing a second handgun nearly berate me for working at a store that sold such obvious "assault rifles". He claimed that, while his gun was clearly for self-defense, anyone who bought an "assault rifle" was obviously going for a paramilitary purpose and had no legitimate reason to purchase the gun. Hopefully you can detect my sarcasm. Unfortunately, the customer was 100% serious. Can you see how this person would be uncomfortable, either rightly or wrongly, with a store full of OC-ers? Many people in the store are first-time buyers or shooters. And although many of you have noted that you expect to see guns at a gun store - and this is true - I think that OC makes many of these people uncomfortable, as they feel they are inhostile environment.Remember, most first-time shooters are in it for the thrill of shooting a gun - many of them are opposed to OC and CC. I do not share this view of course, but this is a business, not a political office.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, and I understand that an OC gun shop will make OC more acceptable, and understand how someone who OCs is handicapped by a gun shop that requires CC.

Arethe above the greatest reasons torequireCC? No.If I opened a gun shop, would I prohibit OC?Probably not.

 

[dougwg]

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Excelent...you seem to understand the silliness of banning OC in a gun store/gun range ESPECIALLY when all the employees are running around OC'ing.

 

[SpringerXDacp]

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reidksmith wrote:

Alright, so I kind of expected that sort of response, so now I'll go with the long reason.

First, I'm not trying to make excuses - like I tried to explain, I'm trying to offer another perspective. I understand the goal of the OC community, and I have been familiar with that for a very long time.I have given newspaper interviews, radio interviews, and done live QA panels to support concealed carry. I think it's fair to say that I am a pro-gunner, tried and true. I do not oppose OC, but I choose not to practice it. I think we can all agree that it is up to everyone to choose OC or CC. I choose CC, but I'll fight to preserve your right to OC.

That said, it's safe to say that everyone here is a safehandler of loaded firearms. However, many customers are not. I've been muzzled by loaded handguns on multiple occasions. Many customers, again, are not as comfortable with firearms as you may believe. Just yesterday, I had a customer who was purchasing a second handgun nearly berate me for working at a store that sold such obvious "assault rifles". He claimed that, while his gun was clearly for self-defense, anyone who bought an "assault rifle" was obviously going for a paramilitary purpose and had no legitimate reason to purchase the gun. Hopefully you can detect my sarcasm. Unfortunately, the customer was 100% serious. Can you see how this person would be uncomfortable, either rightly or wrongly, with a store full of OC-ers? Many people in the store are first-time buyers or shooters. And although many of you have noted that you expect to see guns at a gun store - and this is true - I think that OC makes many of these people uncomfortable, as they feel they are inhostile environment.Remember, most first-time shooters are in it for the thrill of shooting a gun - many of them are opposed to OC and CC. I do not share this view of course, but this is a business, not a political office.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, and I understand that an OC gun shop will make OC more acceptable, and understand how someone who OCs is handicapped by a gun shop that requires CC.

Arethe above the greatest reasons torequireCC? No.If I opened a gun shop, would I prohibit OC?Probably not.

OK, for sake of stable mentality of this clueless wonder you mentioned, do you, the owner(s) and other employees CC for such reasons? Yes or no?

 

[DanM]

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reidksmith wrote:

But I suspect that one of the main reasons for shops to prefer CC is the comfort of customers. Customers do not want to feel uncomfortable when they enter our store.

Some people are really uncomfortable around black folks. Do you ban black folks?

imagine that you are a new member at a gym. Would you feel more comfortable if the personal trainers had normal body types, or if they all looked as though they were on steroids? You would probably be more comfortable taking body-building advice from someone who looked like you, and who you felt was in your situation - not someone who was so muscular that it looked as though they never had to work out.

But do the gyms ban muscular people, or would they tell you to get over yourself if you said "muscular people scare me"?

Yes, in an ideal world, OC would be perfectly acceptable and no one would feel uncomfortable. I don't think that this is the reality yet.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't cater to sheep. We would tell them that dealing with diversity and their own personal discomfort comes with being an adult. Then point to a private room and tell them to please put their big-boy britches on.

 

[ISMOID]

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I think that OC makes many of these people uncomfortable, as they feel they are in hostile environment.
As they would say in a court of law, you do not know what others are thinking unless they tell you what they are thinking. So to assume such is BS. I might even go so far as to say transference.

many of them are opposed to OC and CC.
Again BS. Do you survey everyone that comes in?

I do not share this view of course, but this is a business, not a political office.
Who are you trying to convince?

The library analogy was used earlier so I will use that. What you are saying then would mean you could come into the library with books but they must be in a book bag the whole time. You may look at the books on the shelf but no one should see the books you are carrying.

 

[dougwg]

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easy guys, he's just the messenger.

 

[T Vance]

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N6ATF wrote:

Absolutely not. People in libraries and bookstores are not allowed to carry books around, that would be crazy! And a deadly threat, because after all, the penis mightier than the sword.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my penis is not mightier than a sword. At most I might be able to scare away a mouse with it.

 

[N6ATF]

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reidksmith wrote:

That said, it's safe to say that everyone here is a safehandler of loaded firearms. However, many customers are not. I've been muzzled by loaded handguns on multiple occasions. Many customers, again, are not as comfortable with firearms as you may believe.

Then there's the greater issue: stupid people. If we made decisions based on stupid people, we'd have nuked the human race into extinction by now.

Muzzle covering at gun stores has been brought up in other threads in the past. If people can't follow posted and verbal safety regs and point their guns ONLY at a bullseye on the wall (with sufficient backstop and the rest of the store behind them) or keep them safely holstered, then they can leave.

 

[N6ATF]

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T Vance wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

Absolutely not. People in libraries and bookstores are not allowed to carry books around, that would be crazy! And a deadly threat, because after all, the penis mightier than the sword.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my penis is not mightier than a sword. At most I might be able to scare away a mouse with it.

Noticed my deliberate typo eh?

 

[reidksmith]

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Like I mentioned, this is a business, not a political office. I understand you guys have strong feelings about OC, and you're going to argue for it. But, again, it's a business. From working with the customers, I can tell that some would be uncomfortable around OC. Do I think that is logical? No. Do I think they should deal with it? Yes. But do I think it makes more sense to slide my shirt over my gun, and keep a customer in the store? Absolutely.

In response to the question about my OC/CC: I CC, technically, but not for anything that would pass as CC on the street. I usually wear a t-shirt and will wear a G19 in an outside paddle holster, with the tee over the gun. It is obvious to anyone that is experienced and looking that I am carrying, but it is not advertised. Many customers tell me that they don't realize I carry (until I mention it). Others make a more concerted effort to CC. A few OC. From what I gather, many CC so that they don't have to be concerned with a gun grab while dealing with a customer, (when their attention is with the customer, and not on their hip.)

And again, I am the messenger. No need to refute my arguments to me, as I pretty much agree with you already. As I said, I probably would not prohibit OC from my gun shop unless, after trying it out, I found that it had a negative effect on business.

 

[EM87]

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reidksmith wrote:

Like I mentioned, this is a business, not a political office. I understand you guys have strong feelings about OC, and you're going to argue for it. But, again, it's a business. From working with the customers, I can tell that some would be uncomfortable around OC. Do I think that is logical? No. Do I think they should deal with it? Yes. But do I think it makes more sense to slide my shirt over my gun, and keep a customer in the store? Absolutely.

In response to the question about my OC/CC: I CC, technically, but not for anything that would pass as CC on the street. I usually wear a t-shirt and will wear a G19 in an outside paddle holster, with the tee over the gun. It is obvious to anyone that is experienced and looking that I am carrying, but it is not advertised. Many customers tell me that they don't realize I carry (until I mention it). Others make a more concerted effort to CC. A few OC. From what I gather, many CC so that they don't have to be concerned with a gun grab while dealing with a customer, (when their attention is with the customer, and not on their hip.)

And again, I am the messenger. No need to refute my arguments to me, as I pretty much agree with you already. As I said, I probably would not prohibit OC from my gun shop unless, after trying it out, I found that it had a negative effect on business.

I can see where you're coming from with the business argument - do whatever it takes to keep the customers spending money. That's what business is about. But I don't agree with it.

I'd also like to say (and I'm sure I don't speak only for myself when I say this), I really hope you stick around to debate/discuss/learn with all of us on this forum.

 

[DanM]

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reidksmith wrote:

I am the messenger. No need to refute my arguments to me, as I pretty much agree with you already. As I said, I probably would not prohibit OC from my gun shop unless, after trying it out, I found that it had a negative effect on business.

Don't take the questions and discussion as "shooting the messenger". Businesses that ban OCcreate or overstate the "customer discomfort" level claims they make.OC'ersunderstand the need to do business, and their actual practice of OC and experience shows that there's no real harm to businesses that do not prohibit OC. OC'ers do business all the time in Walmart, Meijer, Target, Home Depot, many other grocery, hardware, and various other businesses that DON'T prohibit OC. Those experiences demonstrate the complete fallacy that gun shops and other businesses attempt to perpetrate that there is a significant problemthat open carry will drive other customers away. It's a complete lie.

From working with the customers, I can tell that some would be uncomfortable around OC.

But would they leave your shop? Couple of days agoat Meijer, I was uncomfortable around a couple people that looked very unkempt and disheveled. ButI managed my discomfort,didn't leave, and went on about my business. That's whatpractically everyone does.

DoI think that is logical? No. Do I think they should deal with it? Yes. But do I think it makes more sense to slide my shirt over my gun, and keep a customer in the store? Absolutely.

Have you ever had to do that? Not that you "guessed" a customer would want you to conceal, but a customer asked you to go from open to concealed? If so, how many of those customers, divided by the total number of customers you've dealt with, to get a ratio? I would be surprised if that ratio is above 0.001 . . . that's about the ratio ofidiotsto the general population.

 

[dougwg]

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DanM wrote:

reidksmith wrote:

I am the messenger. No need to refute my arguments to me, as I pretty much agree with you already. As I said, I probably would not prohibit OC from my gun shop unless, after trying it out, I found that it had a negative effect on business.

Don't take the questions and discussion as "shooting the messenger". Businesses that ban OCcreate or overstate the "customer discomfort" level claims they make.OC'ersunderstand the need to do business and their actual practice of OC and experience shows that there's no real harm to businesses that do not prohibit OC. OC'ers do business all the time in Walmart, Meijer, Target, Home Depot, many other grocery, hardware, and various other businesses that DON'T prohibit OC. Those experiences demonstrate the complete fallacy that gun shops and other businesses attempt to perpetrate that there is a significant problemthat open carry will drive other customers away. It's a complete lie.

From working with the customers, I can tell that some would be uncomfortable around OC.

But would they leave your shop? Couple of days agoat Meijer, I was uncomfortable around a couple people that looked very unkempt and disheveled. ButI managed my discomfort,didn't leave, and went on about my business. That's whatpractically everyone does.

DoI think that is logical? No. Do I think they should deal with it? Yes. But do I think it makes more sense to slide my shirt over my gun, and keep a customer in the store? Absolutely.

Have you ever had to do that? Not that you "guessed" a customer would want you to conceal, but a customer asked you to go from open to concealed? If so, how many of those customers, divided by the total number of customers you've dealt with, to get a ratio? I would be surprised if that ratio is above 0.001 . . . that's about the ratio ofidiotsto the general population.

Bold... WRONG

We all know the % is MUCH higher than that