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Drive-by Shooting Two Nights Ago, At The House

Flopsweat

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In your story you never established that they were shooting at you, let alone that shooting back would accomplish anything - other than drawing fire or getting arrested.

I'm never comfortable with folks putting "When may I shoot?" ahead of "When do I absolutely have to shoot?".

And Wolf is right - forget buying cameras. Put down the mouse and start packing. Use some of that alleged intellect to earn enough money to live in a nice neighborhood.
 

amlevin

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In your story you never established that they were shooting at you, let alone that shooting back would accomplish anything - other than drawing fire or getting arrested.

I'm never comfortable with folks putting "When may I shoot?" ahead of "When do I absolutely have to shoot?".

And Wolf is right - forget buying cameras. Put down the mouse and start packing. Use some of that alleged intellect to earn enough money to live in a nice neighborhood.

Are we even sure there was any shooting? Usually that kind of event is covered in a News article on TV or in Paper.

Anyone with some news accounts of a Central District drive by on the night in question?????
 

BigDave

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I live at a four unit house, on a main street. Five or six shots went off, I ran downstairs, three of the kids were asleep, and one of the kids was awake, looked out the window, and seen the perp, and the car.
Neighbor's friend got shot in the arm. There were a couple of spent rounds, intact, on the ground, looked like 357, sounded like a magnum.
I have been a bit on high alert these past two days. A couple of weeks ago, it was on the news, we had a house fire bombed, next to us, two nights in a row, the second night the house went up in flames.
I used to always carry, even in the house. This past year I haven't been carrying in the house. Now I'm back to carrying in the house again.
Seems like all hell is breaking loose in the Central District, here.
It got me thinking: If someone is shooting at the house, can't a person return fire? I figure a person can, just looking for some ideas on this though. I figure if you feel in danger of your life and/or limb, you can use deadly force.

You were able to run down the stairs then look out the window and see the shooter and car? Let me get this into perspective, you heard 5 or 6 shots (no big deal on the news report say the number is as they often get things confused) and you were able to see the shooter? or who you thought who the shooter might have been, wouldn't that be a little closer to what happened?
From what I know about drive by's they pull up shoot and take off like a sucker punch so by the time you heard the shots, ran down stairs and looked out the window they likely were on their way, not really any time to identify the threat, bring your firearm on target and determine if missed you would not hit the neighbors baby that is sleeping in bed across the street.

When it comes to determining if one is supported by law in using deadly force, it is taught by assessing Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy which all 3 must be occurring that moment in time you pull the trigger.
Just because one finds the legal use of deadly force does not mean one should in every instance.

As to this thread of what if's I have seen more ridiculous scenarios in this forum lately then past few years, mainly from new members just wanting to shoot the breeze, which is fine but find something worth while and beneficial to discuss.

Kathy has a pretty good article on the issue, she is a published author and firearms instructor for those who do not know her.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/legal-concerns/ability-opportunity-jeopardy/
 

rapgood

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Washington state has a felony shoot law.

You may kill someone who is in the middle of committing, attempting to commit, and is escaping after having committed a felony.

I'm not sure that I agree that shooting an escaping felon is justified under Washington law. RCW 9A.16.050, is the statute defining "justifiable homicide" in Washington. Situations contemplated by RCW 9A.16.050(2) are where a felony is underway or is being attempted. State v. Brightman, 155 Wn.2d 506, 522 (2005). Self-defense finds its basis in necessity and generally ends with the cessation of the exigent circumstance which gave rise to the defensive act. United States v. Peterson, 483 F.2d 1222, 1229 (D.C. Cir.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 1007 (1973). A self-defense claim is "predicated upon the right of every citizen to reasonably defend himself against unwarranted attack." State v. Janes, 121 Wn.2d 220, 237 (1993).

I think that in the situation of an "escaping felon," the necessity for self-defense has ceased and with it, the right to use deadly force.
 

Citizen

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I'm not sure that I agree that shooting an escaping felon is justified under Washington law. RCW 9A.16.050, is the statute defining "justifiable homicide" in Washington. Situations contemplated by RCW 9A.16.050(2) are where a felony is underway or is being attempted. State v. Brightman, 155 Wn.2d 506, 522 (2005). Self-defense finds its basis in necessity and generally ends with the cessation of the exigent circumstance which gave rise to the defensive act. United States v. Peterson, 483 F.2d 1222, 1229 (D.C. Cir.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 1007 (1973). A self-defense claim is "predicated upon the right of every citizen to reasonably defend himself against unwarranted attack." State v. Janes, 121 Wn.2d 220, 237 (1993).

I think that in the situation of an "escaping felon," the necessity for self-defense has ceased and with it, the right to use deadly force.

Rapgood might have a point there. I notice that RCW 9A.16.050 separates the sections on justifiable homicide and other times force may be used. This implies that lesser force is being discussed in that later section.
 
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Citizen

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Which part of Tennesse v Garner http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/case.html are you saying allows/encourages/supports shooting a fleeing felon? I just read it and all I see is "unreasonable" to use lethal force to apprehend, without mitigating circumstances.

edit: case retracted as support :)

For other readers, Vitaeus is responding to a post I deleted. He saw it before I deleted it.

I didn't say Tennessee v Garner allows/encourages/supports shooting a fleeing felon. I said it allows lethal force to apprehend a fleeing dangerous felon ala T vs G, as in to whatever extent and under whatever T vs G permitted.

Now, lets look at the case and see whether and how far off base I was. Be right back.

Found it. Bottom of Section II:

The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster.
 
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rapgood

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For other readers, Vitaeus is responding to a post I deleted. He saw it before I deleted it.

I didn't say Tennessee v Garner allows/encourages/supports shooting a fleeing felon. I said it allows lethal force to apprehend a fleeing dangerous felon ala T vs G, as in to whatever extent and under whatever T vs G permitted.

Now, lets look at the case and see whether and how far off base I was. Be right back.

Found it. Bottom of Section II:

The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster.

The Supes narrowly construed the constitutionality of the Tennessee statute. And, importantly, they extended that limited authority only to LE, effectively dealing a serious blow to the common-law rule allowing just about anyone to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon..
The Fourth Amendment, for purposes of this case, should not be construed in light of the common law rule allowing the use of whatever force is necessary to effect the arrest of a fleeing felon. Changes in the legal and technological context mean that that rule is distorted almost beyond recognition when literally applied. Whereas felonies were formerly capital crimes, few are now, or can be, and many crimes classified as misdemeanors, or nonexistent, at common law are now felonies. Also, the common law rule developed at a time when weapons were rudimentary. And, in light of the varied rules adopted in the States indicating a long-term movement away from the common law rule, particularly in the police departments themselves, that rule is a dubious indicium of the constitutionality of the Tennessee statute. There is no indication that holding a police practice such as that authorized by the statute unreasonable will severely hamper effective law enforcement."

The holding was that deadly force "may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
 

Citizen

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The Supes narrowly construed the constitutionality of the Tennessee statute. And, importantly, they extended that limited authority only to LE, effectively dealing a serious blow to the common-law rule allowing just about anyone to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon..


The holding was that deadly force "may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

I think you are adding in something. I was not trying to say, and did not say, that Tennessee vs Garner was an authority for citizens shooting fleeing felons. It was an example about fleeing dangerous felons where the other posters were talking about fleeing felons and self-defense.

Separately, are you saying TvG foreclosed citizens using deadly force to stop fleeing dangerous felons? I do not recall that; please quote if you are claiming that. Lets wrap this up because I've already deleted that post for other reasons.
 
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Freedom1Man

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I'm not sure that I agree that shooting an escaping felon is justified under Washington law. RCW 9A.16.050, is the statute defining "justifiable homicide" in Washington. Situations contemplated by RCW 9A.16.050(2) are where a felony is underway or is being attempted. State v. Brightman, 155 Wn.2d 506, 522 (2005). Self-defense finds its basis in necessity and generally ends with the cessation of the exigent circumstance which gave rise to the defensive act. United States v. Peterson, 483 F.2d 1222, 1229 (D.C. Cir.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 1007 (1973). A self-defense claim is "predicated upon the right of every citizen to reasonably defend himself against unwarranted attack." State v. Janes, 121 Wn.2d 220, 237 (1993).

I think that in the situation of an "escaping felon," the necessity for self-defense has ceased and with it, the right to use deadly force.

It would seem that I had misread the statute. I will have to scratch the fleeing part. Thanks for pointing that out.

However it is still not limited to self defense.
 

Citizen

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It would seem that I had misread the statute. I will have to scratch the fleeing part. Thanks for pointing that out.

However it is still not limited to self defense.

My concern is that the statute lists fleeing felon in a section that is clearly separate from the part about justifiable homicide. Fleeing felon is in the section that talks about force; that section does not expressly say lethal force; in fact it kinda seems to talk about other force. When you read that list, there are situations where lethal force just would not be authorized, so that list is talking about force in general. It is not clear one way or the other that lethal force by a citizen is authorized by the statute to stop a fleeing dangerous felon. And, since that list section is separate from the express authorization for lethal force, I am thinking the fleeing felon provision is not included.
 
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BigDave

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11 WAPRAC WPIC 16.02
WPIC 16.02 Justifiable Homicide—Defense of Self and Others

11 Wash. Prac., Pattern Jury Instr. Crim. WPIC 16.02 (3d Ed)

Washington Practice Series TM
Database Updated November 2011

Washington Pattern Jury Instructions--Criminal
2008 Edition Prepared by the Washington Supreme Court Committee On Jury Instructions, Hon. Sharon S. Armstrong, Co-Chair, Hon. William L. Downing, Co-Chair

Part IV. Defenses
WPIC CHAPTER 16. Justifiable Homicide

WPIC 16.02 Justifiable Homicide—Defense of Self and Others

It is a defense to a charge of [murder] [manslaughter] that the homicide was justifiable as defined in this instruction.
Homicide is justifiable when committed in the lawful defense of [the slayer] [the slayer's [husband] [wife] [registered domestic partner] [parent] [child] [brother] [sister]] [any person in the slayer's presence or company] when:
1) the slayer reasonably believed that the person slain [or others whom the defendant reasonably believed were acting in concert with the person slain] intended [to commit a felony] [to inflict death or great personal injury];
2) the slayer reasonably believed that there was imminent danger of such harm being accomplished; and
3) the slayer employed such force and means as a reasonably prudent person would use under the same or similar conditions as they reasonably appeared to the slayer, taking into consideration all the facts and circumstances as they appeared to [him] [her], at the time of [and prior to] the incident.
The State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the homicide was not justifiable. If you find that the State has not proved the absence of this defense beyond a reasonable doubt, it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty.

NOTE ON USE

Use this instruction in any homicide case in which this defense is an issue supported by the evidence. Use bracketed material as applicable.
Use WPIC 25.01, Homicide—Definition, with this instruction. Use WPIC 2.04.01, Great Personal Injury—Definition, and WPIC 2.09, Felony—Designation of, as applicable with this instruction. If there is an issue whether the defendant was the aggressor, use WPIC 16.04, Aggressor—Defense of Self and Others.
If resistance to a felony is involved, see WPIC 16.03, Justifiable Homicide—Resistance to Felony.
Do not use this instruction if the deadly force was used to defend against a non-violent felony, such as forgery, bribery, perjury, or the like.
When the offense charged is attempted murder, use this instruction, rather than WPIC 17.02, Lawful Force—Defense of Self, Others, Property.
If a case involves a registered domestic partnership, and if it becomes necessary to define the term for jurors, an instruction can be drafted using language from RCW Chapter 26.60.

COMMENT

Generally. The instruction is based upon RCW 9A.16.050(1).
All facts and circumstances. The instruction's third numbered paragraph, referring to all facts and circumstances, is based upon State v. Allery, 101 Wn.2d 591, 682 P.2d 312 (1984). In Allery, the Supreme Court held that if there is evidence of self-defense, the jury must be instructed “to consider the conditions as they appeared to the slayer, taking into consideration all the facts and circumstances known to the slayer at the time and prior to the incident.” State v. Allery, 101 Wn.2d at 595. Also see State v. Hoffman, 116 Wn.2d 51, 804 P.2d 577 (1991); State v. Bell, 60 Wn.App. 561, 805 P.2d 815 (Div. 2 1991).
In a case involving allegations of ongoing abuse, the jury is to inquire whether the defendant acted reasonably, given the defendant's experience of abuse by the victim. State v. Janes, 121 Wn.2d 220, 239, 850 P.2d 495, 22 A.L.R.5th 921 (1993).
Burden of proof. The paragraph referring to the burden of proof is based upon State v. McCullum, 98 Wn.2d 484, 656 P.2d 1064 (1983). In McCullum, the court held that the State has the burden of proving the absence of self-defense in a prosecution for first degree murder. McCullum continues to be cited with approval on this point. E.g., State v. Lively, 130 Wn.2d 1, 10, 921 P.2d 1035 (1996). For a detailed discussion see the Introduction to Part IV—Defenses. In State v. Read, 147 Wn.2d 238, 53 P.3d 26 (2002), the court held that a defendant had a burden of producing “some evidence” to establish the killing occurred under circumstances where there was a defense of life and also to produce “some evidence” that he or she had a reasonable apprehension of great bodily harm or imminent danger, before the defendant is deemed entitled to raise a self-defense claim. However, this must be read in conjunction with McCullum, where the court explained that there only needs to be some evidence admitted, from whatever source, which tends to prove the killing was done in self-defense. State v. McCullum, 98 Wn.2d at 487.
Withdrawal. As a general rule, one who is the aggressor or who provokes an altercation in which another is killed cannot invoke the right of self-defense to justify or excuse the homicide. However, the right of self-defense is revived as to the aggressor or the provoker if that person in good faith withdraws from the combat at such time and in such a manner as to clearly apprise the other person that he or she was desisting or intended to desist from further aggressive action. See State v. Craig, 82 Wn.2d 777, 514 P.2d 151 (1973); State v. Wilson, 26 Wn.2d 468, 174 P.2d 553 (1946). In State v. Dennison, 115 Wn.2d 609, 801 P.2d 193 (1990), the Washington Supreme Court found that the trial court correctly refused the defendant's proposed self-defense instruction in a prosecution for felony murder because the defendant did not drop his gun or surrender and did not “clearly manifest a good faith intention to withdraw from the burglary or remove the decedent's fear.” State v. Dennison, 115 Wn.2d at 618.
Felony murder. A claim of self-defense in felony murder prosecutions presents special problems for instructing the jury. In State v. Dennison, 115 Wn.2d 609, 801 P.2d 193 (1990), the Supreme Court held that because a defendant is strictly responsible for death caused while fleeing from first degree burglary, the trial court properly refused the defendant's proposed self-defense instruction because the burglary was still in progress at the time that the defendant was fleeing from scene. In State v. Bolar, 118 Wn.App. 490, 78 P.2d 1012 (Div. 1 2003), the court, discussing Dennison, seemed to hold that self-defense is not available as a matter of law when the felony murder is based on burglary. In State v. Ferguson, 131 Wn.App. 855, 129 P.3d 856 (Div. 2 2006), the Court of Appeals held that when the felony murder charge is predicated on assault, the defendant may claim self-defense but only if he reasonably feared death or great bodily harm. Thus, the Ferguson court concluded that only WPIC 16.02 can be given in a felony murder prosecution and that WPIC 17.02 can “never” be given. It appears that, in determining whether the jury should be instructed on self-defense, the court should carefully analyze the facts presented at trial and the elements of the predicate felony alleged.
Defense of others. A person has a right to use such force to defend another as the person may use in defending himself or herself. The right to resort to the use of force in defending another is to be judged by the facts and circumstances appearing to the defender at the time. Thus, an individual is justified in using force to defend another if that individual reasonably believes that the person to be protected is the innocent party and in danger, even if, in fact, the person being defended was the aggressor. See State v. Penn, 89 Wn.2d 63, 568 P.2d 797 (1977); State v. Fischer, 23 Wn.App. 756, 598 P.2d 742 (Div. 2 1979); State v. Bernardy, 25 Wn.App. 146, 605 P.2d 791 (Div. 1 1980).
RCW 9A.16.050(1) states in part that homicide is justifiable when committed “in the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company.” It has been held that under this statutory language, a homicide committed in the defense of another is not justifiable, unless the person being defended was present at the time of homicide. See State v. Trevino, 10 Wn.App. 89, 516 P.2d 779 (Div. 3 1973) (homicide allegedly in defense of the defendant's wife and children was not justifiable because neither the wife nor the children were present at the time of the shooting).
Imminent danger. The phrase “the slayer reasonably believed that” is included in the second numbered paragraph in light of the holding of the court in State v. LeFaber, 128 Wn.2d 896, 913 P.2d 369 (1996) (overruled on other grounds in State v. O'Hara, 167 Wn.2d 91, 217 P.3d 756 (2009)) and State v. Studd, 137 Wn.2d 533, 973 P.2d 1049 (1999), that the former version could be misunderstood to require actual imminent danger. See also WPIC 16.07, Justifiable Homicide—Actual Danger Not Necessary, and its Comment.


“Imminence does not require an actual physical assault. A threat, or its equivalent, can support self-defense when there is a reasonable belief that the threat will be carried out. Especially in abusive relationships, patterns of behavior become apparent which can signal the next abusive episode.”

State v. Janes, 121 Wn.2d at 241 (citations omitted). While “immediate harm” means “occurring, acting, or accomplished without loss of time: made or done at once,” “imminent harm” means “ready to take place: near at hand: … hanging threateningly over one's head.” In an abusive situation, “[t]hat the triggering behavior and the abusive episode are divided by time does not necessarily negate the reasonableness of the defendant's perception of imminent harm.” 121 Wn.2d at 241.
Multiple assailants. There is no requirement that the defendant's fear be caused by only the person slain. His self-defense is lawful if based on reasonable fear of imminent harm from either the person slain, or others whom the defendant also reasonably feared. State v. Harris, 122 Wn.App. 547, 90 P.3d 1133 (Div. 2 2004); State v. Irons, 101 Wn.App. 544, 550, 4 P.3d 174 (Div. 1 2000).
Great personal injury. When given in conjunction with this instruction in a case involving the use of force against an unarmed assailant, the definition of “great personal injury” must contain the subjective element, as set forth in WPIC 2.04.01, Great Personal Injury—Definition. State v. Walden, 131 Wn.2d 469, 932 P.2d 1237 (1997). Practitioners should carefully note that “great personal injury” is distinct from “great bodily harm.” See the discussion of these terms in the Comment to WPIC 2.04.01. The term “great bodily harm” should not be used with this instruction. State v. Walden, 131 Wn.2d at 475 n.3.
Attempted murder. This instruction, rather than WPIC 17.02, Lawful Force—Defense of Self, Others, Property, should be used when the charged offense is attempted murder. “[T]he important issue is the defendant's mental state in committing the crime, not whether the victim in fact died.” State v. Cowen, 87 Wn.App. 45, 53, 939 P.2d 1249 (Div. 1 1997).
Domestic partners. In 2009, the Legislature amended RCW Chapter 9A.16 to indicate that the chapter's references to spouses are to be interpreted as applying equally to state registered domestic partners. RCW 9A.16.900; Laws of 2009, Chapter 521, § 22 (effective December 3, 2009, based on voter approval of Referendum Measure 71). The pattern instruction has been updated accordingly.
Other. The statute states in part that the defense is applicable “when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony.” For purposes of the defense, the use of deadly force appears to be limited to the resistance of violent felonies that threaten human life or may result in great personal injury. See State v. Nyland, 47 Wn.2d 240, 287 P.2d 345 (1955) (adultery is not a crime that imperils the life of the unoffending spouse or threatens personal injury). No self-defense instruction should be given when deadly force is used to repel an unlawful trespass that does not amount to a felony, because such force is excessive as a matter of law. State v. Griffith, 91 Wn.2d 572, 589 P.2d 799 (1979).
For a discussion of non-violent felonies that would not justify the use of deadly force, see the Comment to WPIC 16.03, Justifiable Homicide—Resistance to Felony.
In State v. Hughes, 106 Wn.2d 176, 721 P.2d 902 (1986), the Washington Supreme Court refused to adopt the doctrine of “imperfect” self-defense. The court found that the trial court did not err in refusing an instruction that stated that “the use of force is not done with unlawful intent to kill where the person believes in good faith that he or she is acting in self-defense even though the person's belief is unreasonable.” State v. Hughes, 106 Wn.2d at 188. Also see State v. Bell, 60 Wn.App. 561, 805 P.2d 815 (Div. 2 1991). For cases relating to a defendant's reasonable belief as a justification for acting in self-defense, see the Comments to WPIC 16.04, Aggressor—Defense of Self and Others and WPIC 17.02, Lawful Force—Defense of Self and Others.
[Current as of February 1, 2010.]

Westlaw. © 2011 Thomson Reuters. No Claim to Orig. U.S. Govt. Works.

11 WAPRAC WPIC 16.02
 

Citizen

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If that was supposed to be helpful, BigDave, it missed.

Would you please comment so we don't have to try to read the whole thing and figure it out. A little direction as to your intended communication would be a help.
 

Freedom1Man

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My concern is that the statute lists fleeing felon in a section that is clearly separate from the part about justifiable homicide. Fleeing felon is in the section that talks about force; that section does not expressly say lethal force; in fact it kinda seems to talk about other force. When you read that list, there are situations where lethal force just would not be authorized, so that list is talking about force in general. It is not clear one way or the other that lethal force by a citizen is authorized by the statute to stop a fleeing dangerous felon. And, since that list section is separate from the express authorization for lethal force, I am thinking the fleeing felon provision is not included.

I think when I had stacked those sections before I missed the change over between section.

Either way. Thanks to rapgood, I was corrected.
 

amlevin

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If that was supposed to be helpful, BigDave, it missed.

Would you please comment so we don't have to try to read the whole thing and figure it out. A little direction as to your intended communication would be a help.

I don't know, some of us merely print out long posts and use them for "toilet reading". ;);) That way, even if the information isn't helpful, all may not be lost if the "roll is empty". :)
 

BigDave

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If that was supposed to be helpful, BigDave, it missed.

Would you please comment so we don't have to try to read the whole thing and figure it out. A little direction as to your intended communication would be a help.

Really, you missed it???? it was bolded and underlined "3) the slayer employed such force and means as a reasonably prudent person would use under the same or similar conditions as they reasonably appeared to the slayer, taking into consideration all the facts and circumstances as they appeared to [him] [her], at the time of [and prior to] the incident."
Washington State has put in place reasonable force, nor more then necessary and from a reasonable prudent person would do under the same circumstances.
After the notes is supporting cites from the Jury Instructions in which one will be facing if charged and finds themselves in front of a judge or jury.

Any force be it minimal to the use of deadly force must be seen as reasonable, not more the necessary as viewed by a reasonable prudent person, shooting a fleeing felon with out cause is placing yourself and family in legal jeopardy.

We have seen in this forum where people have stated deadly force is authorized for someone stealing personal items or even a felony infront of them, while force is authorized it is not a free get out of jail card for using deadly force.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Personally if it was me I would have got off the internet, started packing and looking for a safe place to live. Hell we shouldn't even have to suggest to her to move, she is a intelligent liberal. The very least she could do is ask Obama to pay for her move, and supply the movers, since he obviously is not going to put a stop to the drive by shootings.

I would move, if I had that option. We will stick it out here, until we can move to an area that has less drive-by shootings.

You can run from everything around you. Shootings happen.
 
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tombrewster421

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I would move, if I had that option. We will stick it out here, until we can move to an area that has less drive-by shootings.

I'm pretty sure that the landlord could not hold you to your lease under these circumstances. At least that's how I understood the landlord tenant act.
 
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