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Effective Communication with Anti-OC Legislators.

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
Again, nothing can be done about the makeup of the senate between now and the next session, so why threaten people who are for OC, even if they went about it stupidly?

You must first believe that they truly are for OC. I don't see that way. I think the OC portion (title) of the bill was a fraud from the beginning. Evers might not have been the culprit but I assure you the NRA was. They said lets put it in there and if it passes OK, if it jeopardizes the bill we can yank it. It never should have been titled “Open Carry” if it truly wasn’t. The fraud is what is reprehensible.
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Yes,

Because a legislator doesn't want to come away empty handed from a session. His stupid doctors/guns bill was castrated, campus carry was nuked. He thought he could sneak it through and was mistaken. We all make mistakes. Hopefully HB 517 dies. That makes are job easier. Either way, next time accidental exposure or the vague language of the new SB 234 will be a small part of the argument.

Again, nothing can be done about the makeup of the senate between now and the next session, so why threaten people who are for OC, even if they went about it stupidly?

Well,again someone makes my points for me.How can we count on,rely on, whatever, folks who are too meek to come out and say BOLDLY,BLUNTLY, what needs saying? To heck with warm/fuzzy word-games, and trying to "sneak" things into bills.
And if they arent smart enough at the game to win by direct,open means,but instead try to play subtly Machievelli stratagies,no matter how much they smile and nod and tell us they want the same things as us, why should we count on them to do better at a later time?
They've arent showing us any kind of performance track record of being able to get things done. They allow themselves to be bullied by wenches whom they out-number,and cave in. Why should we continue to hitch our wagon to the lame horses?
Cut our losses, I say, and begin working on their replacements.
Or,in the meantime, let them know-"ok,here's your second-chance-get it done, do it right, no compromises-or next season you get to warm a bench"
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
The only thing I can do is write well reasoned letters, brief but not in a "rude, threatening, or angry manner." Anything else is counterproductive at this time. Write nice letters to the House sponsors and see if they'll consider shelving HB 517, this way maybe we can get NRA muscle again for next year. In the meantime, I'm waiting for orders from Sean in the weeks ahead.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
The only thing I can do is write well reasoned letters, brief but not in a "rude, threatening, or angry manner." Anything else is counterproductive at this time. Write nice letters to the House sponsors and see if they'll consider shelving HB 517, this way maybe we can get NRA muscle again for next year. In the meantime, I'm waiting for orders from Sean in the weeks ahead.

Im not seeing anyone-myself included-proposing anything angry/rude/or even remotely threatening. By all means send the letters. What we are saying is, do so without mincing words. Shelve the warm/fuzzy/word-gaming. Be direct. Be blunt.
Let them know we are angry.Let them know we feel betrayed by them.
Let them know that we know that they know that thier effort was largely a sham and a farce. That they know precisely what it is we are after,and nothing less will be acceptable.
(organization IS called FLORIDA OPEN CARRY is it not? Or should we change it to something like Florida kinda/sorta Open Carry by accident if you would be so kind,please,sir/maam)
Let them know that if they can do right by us, and make right what they have wronged,they should expect our full support. But if they cannot or are not willing to fully and completely try to do so,then they should fully NOT expect our continued support.

Or, consider it a form of "peer counselling" or a "counselling statement".
"your job performance has been less than stellar. your continued employment depends entirely upon the results of your future efforts.get the job done well, we see about possible promotions in the future, fail utterly, and you get a pink slip."
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
maybe we can get NRA muscle again for next year.
NRA muscle? Of what do you speak? The NRA has the muscle, they just didn't flex it on SB234. They were content with their mediocre victory in the win column. We had it and they caved or they never really intended to support OC. The NRA needs to hear from us loud and clear. No polite begging or pus*y footing. They need to be forced to cover their ears and not their eyes like they did this time.

Every Floridian that belongs to a gun club that requires NRA membership should be motioning for a change in by-laws of their clubs. NRA, GOA or any pro-gun group membership should suffice for membership.
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Applause.gif
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
We are in no rush anymore. I'm sure we'll get our emails from FLCarry. Let the fearless leaders do what they do. Hopefully they've learned a bit from this.

Time to relax for a while. Regroup. Start hammering them again in a few months. For now, invite the evil ones to your fishing trips.... ;-)

Time to relax for a while. Regroup. Start hammering them again in a few months.

Why in the world would we want to relax for any point of time? This is hot right now. Treat this as a wasp nest don't keep poking at every so often get a can of raid and get rid of them if you are unable to teach them new tricks. Remember it is very hard to teach a old dog new tricks. But it is possible with the right strategy and persistence.
NEVER LETTING UP.
 
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77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
NRA muscle? Of what do you speak? The NRA has the muscle, they just didn't flex it on SB234. They were content with their mediocre victory in the win column. We had it and they caved or they never really intended to support OC. The NRA needs to hear from us loud and clear. No polite begging or pus*y footing. They need to be forced to cover their ears and not their eyes like they did this time.

Every Floridian that belongs to a gun club that requires NRA membership should be motioning for a change in by-laws of their clubs. NRA, GOA or any pro-gun group membership should suffice for membership.

That's what I'm saying; we need to convince the NRA that open carry needs to be a priority. They don't need to fight for it in most states. It's illegal Florida and that is unacceptable. Further, they should promote open carry everywhere because it norms gun in society.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Why in the world would we want to relax for any point of time? This is hot right now. Treat this as a wasp nest don't keep poking at every so often get a can of raid and get rid of them if you are unable to teach them new tricks. Remember it is very hard to teach a old dog new tricks. But it is possible with the right strategy and persistence.
NEVER LETTING UP.

I am by no means saying give up on it, or side-line it. Im saying save our efforts,and focus them, in a more determined manner, on folks who are openly, and bluntly willing to act on our behalf. Or, failing that, find someone who is, and then elect them into office.

My issue with a lot of the "take it easy,give em another shot" bit being proposed here,is simply this:
This time around we were stuck hitching our hopes to people who we seem to have to beg and /or convince of our cause, who were already in power. The effort was made with what we had to work with. Got it, understood.

What Im proposing is let's begin working towards finding potential Senators and or Reps-not yet in office,but to be put forward and voted for-who we will know, and they will know, going in, that this is what we want/demand. Folks whoare already in favor of it, support it, want it, and will fight tooth and nail for it from the word GO! .

Not guys who "might" support it, if we beg and grovel and stoke their ego enough.
Not guys who will smile, wink at us, blow smoke up our ass until stabbing us in the back at the last minute.
Not guys who will claim-sort of-to be in favor`-then sit on the sidelines probing themselves with their thumbs, while folks they out-number re-word their bill into the opposite of what it should be.
And certainly NOT folks who instead of deliberately,bluntly proposing a bill that outright declares itself as OPEN Carry,instead try to be crafty and clever,or give themselves items they can sacrifice in order to get some other half-assed items in.
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
That's what I'm saying; we need to convince the NRA that open carry needs to be a priority. They don't need to fight for it in most states. It's illegal Florida and that is unacceptable. Further, they should promote open carry everywhere because it norms gun in society.
I understand the concept of OC and the acceptance of guns in America. I think the NRA understands the same thing. They simply saw an easy victory without OC language and they took it. They need to be called on the carpet for it and pay restitution for deceiving us on SB234. They knew OC was coming out of SB234 and they didn't put their full force behind the true title of the bill. It will be another 24 years before we see an opportunity of this magnitude. The NRA claims 2A support but they failed to demonstrate it on SB234. It is now that the NRA should make restitution to us by pounding on the house with all their muscle to kill SB234 by standing their ground on HB517. The NRA is not going to do that because their priority is a check mark in the win column. If we do not get in their sh*t right now OC is dead for years to come. Next year will be too late and your chance of getting OC as a stand alone bill or an attachment to another pro gun bill is slim to none. What other pro gun legislation is going on next year’s calendar? This session was one of the most aggressive pro gun sessions I have seen in Florida since I’ve lived here. The momentum will die because there is very little pro gun legislation for next year.

Someone in another thread preached that Florida has some of the most pro gun laws in the country. Yep, I agree so what else do you intend to fight for other than OC. The long gun issue and the other crap in SB234 were needed so they were passed. OC is not needed (in the eyes of the senate) and it will never survive as a stand alone. The only thing next year you will have to push is campus carry and open carry. Neither will get through unless you have something else to attach it to that the senate needs or wants. (Federal language long guns)

The NRA knows that and their wavering support will be another façade and I’m willing to bet they don’t sign on to an OC/Campus carry stand alone bill they know will get defeated. Mark my words. NRA doesn’t like defeat and they will be so busy with the federal fight if Obama is even close to winning reelection (please don’t turn this into an Obama discussion) that they will snub us. If we are not strong and demanding right now, today, before Friday we are screwed. We need to stop talking about next year and start talking about HB517 before Friday’s close.
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
I understand the concept of OC and the acceptance of guns in America. I think the NRA understands the same thing. They simply saw an easy victory without OC language and they took it. They need to be called on the carpet for it and pay restitution for deceiving us on SB234. They knew OC was coming out of SB234 and they didn't put their full force behind the true title of the bill. It will be another 24 years before we see an opportunity of this magnitude. The NRA claims 2A support but they failed to demonstrate it on SB234. It is now that the NRA should make restitution to us by pounding on the house with all their muscle to kill SB234 by standing their ground on HB517. The NRA is not going to do that because their priority is a check mark in the win column. If we do not get in their sh*t right now OC is dead for years to come. Next year will be too late and your chance of getting OC as a stand alone bill or an attachment to another pro gun bill is slim to none. What other pro gun legislation is going on next year’s calendar? This session was one of the most aggressive pro gun sessions I have seen in Florida since I’ve lived here. The momentum will die because there is very little pro gun legislation for next year.

Someone in another thread preached that Florida has some of the most pro gun laws in the country. Yep, I agree so what else do you intend to fight for other than OC. The long gun issue and the other crap in SB234 were needed so they were passed. OC is not needed (in the eyes of the senate) and it will never survive as a stand alone. The only thing next year you will have to push is campus carry and open carry. Neither will get through unless you have something else to attach it to that the senate needs or wants. (Federal language long guns)

The NRA knows that and their wavering support will be another façade and I’m willing to bet they don’t sign on to an OC/Campus carry stand alone bill they know will get defeated. Mark my words. NRA doesn’t like defeat and they will be so busy with the federal fight if Obama is even close to winning reelection (please don’t turn this into an Obama discussion) that they will snub us. If we are not strong and demanding right now, today, before Friday we are screwed. We need to stop talking about next year and start talking about HB517 before Friday’s close.

Some good points, but really, is there any hope of anything being done on 517 this week?
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
I am by no means saying give up on it, or side-line it. Im saying save our efforts,and focus them, in a more determined manner, on folks who are openly, and bluntly willing to act on our behalf. Or, failing that, find someone who is, and then elect them into office.

My issue with a lot of the "take it easy,give em another shot" bit being proposed here,is simply this:
This time around we were stuck hitching our hopes to people who we seem to have to beg and /or convince of our cause, who were already in power. The effort was made with what we had to work with. Got it, understood.

What Im proposing is let's begin working towards finding potential Senators and or Reps-not yet in office,but to be put forward and voted for-who we will know, and they will know, going in, that this is what we want/demand. Folks whoare already in favor of it, support it, want it, and will fight tooth and nail for it from the word GO! .

Not guys who "might" support it, if we beg and grovel and stoke their ego enough.
Not guys who will smile, wink at us, blow smoke up our ass until stabbing us in the back at the last minute.
Not guys who will claim-sort of-to be in favor`-then sit on the sidelines probing themselves with their thumbs, while folks they out-number re-word their bill into the opposite of what it should be.
And certainly NOT folks who instead of deliberately,bluntly proposing a bill that outright declares itself as OPEN Carry,instead try to be crafty and clever,or give themselves items they can sacrifice in order to get some other half-assed items in.

I still say a major protest is what is needed as to have Gov Scott NOT sign the BS234 "Back Stabbing 234" into law and get some serious media involved. What better way to get free advertising than that of the National news and papers. Get flyers made, some good speakers together with the fact sheets showing crime statistics, a better way to show that this government is becoming more and more TYRANNIC, and have the speaker(s) explain what the word (TYRANNIC) is to the sheeple of this country in reality and what it will mean if they keep letting the government take away are freedoms, how important the 2ND amendment really is and that it is the ONE most important constitutional Right we have, to fight the tyrannic government when they come to take the rest of our rights away. Have free seminars in parks/legal places all across this state and others.
These are the thing why most "NRA" members have join the nra in the first place was to have them provide public awareness, meeting's, fight for all of our 2ND amendment Right's not just some, instead all they want to do in my opinion is sell their memberships. If you have ever been to the meets that they sponsor the main goal is membership request/info.
As much money that they make from members, When was the last time you can remember seeing anything that looked like a 2ND amendment brochure from them that did NOT have the Membership in mind as their first goal. 2ND amendment stuff coming in second place.
We need to fight this ourselves as to not be comprised to take buy off's or sell out. This is not about money to those of us that really want our right's in full.

If we the people took a national vote Publicly in front of the whole Nation live on some PBS type channel and showed the Government that this is what we the people want then they won't be able to look the other way any longer. And get this settled once and for all.
GOD BLESS AMERICA. NOT GOD HELP US WE ARE SCREWED
 
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firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
Some good points, but really, is there any hope of anything being done on 517 this week?
Yea, pound the youngsters of the house not to surrender the language of HB517. If they cannot get the two bills in line with language it will kill both bills. That will force the Senate to readdress the long gun issue which they must do because of federal language. OC can be reintroduced into a new bill that is needed by the senate. We will lose nothing if both bills die because we gained nothing in SB234. Florida Carry needs to get on the NRA and make this happen now and not wait until next year… The NRA is the only ones that can make this happen but I don’t see that happening. They want their win and the house reps are too weak to go against their seniors in the senate. But it is the only way to get this catastrophe corrected. It is worth a shot and at least we won’t be seen as sheep dogs sitting on our thumbs playing nice.. Maybe the Senate will take notice.
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
"We need to fight this ourselves as to not be comprised to take buy off's or sell out. This is not about money to those of us that really want our right's in full."

Exactly. Agreed. AND,we need to keep that in mind with any future potential candidate/minor party if we ever get one,as well. One who will not be going in "beholden to" an organized interest with funds.

"If we the people took a national vote Publicly in front of the whole Nation live on some PBS type channel and showed the Government that this is what we the people want then they won't be able to look the other way any longer. And get this settled once and for all. "

Disagree,however. And here's why: in some ways this is correct. In others not. Example?
Would we be paying anything like the amounts/types of Federal Taxes-despite what the Constitution actuall provides for, for all these years? Despite the constant complaints/protests to it?
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
"We need to fight this ourselves as to not be comprised to take buy off's or sell out. This is not about money to those of us that really want our right's in full."

Exactly. Agreed. AND,we need to keep that in mind with any future potential candidate/minor party if we ever get one,as well. One who will not be going in "beholden to" an organized interest with funds.

"If we the people took a national vote Publicly in front of the whole Nation live on some PBS type channel and showed the Government that this is what we the people want then they won't be able to look the other way any longer. And get this settled once and for all. "

Disagree,however. And here's why: in some ways this is correct. In others not. Example?
Would we be paying anything like the amounts/types of Federal Taxes-despite what the Constitution actuall provides for, for all these years? Despite the constant complaints/protests to it?

Disagree,however. And here's why: in some ways this is correct. In others not. Example?
Would we be paying anything like the amounts/types of Federal Taxes-despite what the Constitution actuall provides for, for all these years? Despite the constant complaints/protests to it?

I understand What you are saying, But I still think something in those lines would do something rather then nothing and would make the sheeple think a little more about who they choose for a Government. My opinion anyway.....
 
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j4l

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Joined
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Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Disagree,however. And here's why: in some ways this is correct. In others not. Example?


I understand What you are saying, But I still think something in those lines would do something rather then nothing and would make the sheeple think a little more about who they choose for a Government. My opinion anyway.....

And a good one. It seems to have worked,on a National level, in some cases, for the Tea Party folks in a number of situations.
Why not combine the efforts? Demonstrations accompanied by movements to vote out/replace the oppressors? Or combined as the rally/events of such candidates,once selected?
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
And a good one. It seems to have worked,on a National level, in some cases, for the Tea Party folks in a number of situations.
Why not combine the efforts? Demonstrations accompanied by movements to vote out/replace the oppressors? Or combined as the rally/events of such candidates,once selected?

All I know is that We The People keep making wrong choices in our leaders/lawmakers and need to start thinking a different way
 
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