Email from Costco tonight..

[xxx.jakk.xxx]

I don't think that this was supposed to be a religious topic... Can we maybe get off of the off topic?

 

[Bob Warden]

Just asking a question that was directly on point with a prior post - didn't mean to whip people into a tizzy. Sorry if I offended.

 

[xxx.jakk.xxx]

Just asking a question that was directly on point with a prior post - didn't mean to whip people into a tizzy. Sorry if I offended.

My first reply to you was trying to diffuse the situation before it got to where it is now. I know that religion is a hot topic and that people can become very angry very quickly about it. Especially when people start to bring in the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" and such...

 

[Ajetpilot]

Just asking a question that was directly on point with a prior post - didn't mean to whip people into a tizzy. Sorry if I offended.

No offense taken. Now, back to the conversation.

Many decisions in life can be made by analyzing the risk versus reward of each option. The reward of OC or CC is the ability to protect the lives of you and your loved ones. The risk, as far as carrying in Costco is concerned, is being asked to leave, and possibly losing your membership. In this case the reward far outweighs the risk.

On the other hand, the risk of carrying into a post office might become a legal issue if caught. IANAL, but if I recall correctly, the penalty for doing so is a $50 fine, and/or 90 days (please correct me if I am mistaken) which would probably be suspended for a first time offender.

Risk versus reward. Life is about choices.

Edit to add: Wait, I think I've found it. 39 CFR 232.1

Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in
these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other
Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

 

[Kryteon]

Costco?

The problem with this policy is that you are financially supporting a business that does not respect your civil rights. Further, they do not post their policy on their door, so they find it acceptable to humiliate a customer who inadvertently violates their gun policy. Costco’s secret no-gun policy has resulted in the death of one man so far: http://www.usma1994.com/classnews.aspx?newsid=16

They will never receive my support.

In this case, my beef is not with Costco, but with those who responded to the 911 call. Unbelievable if accurate. Costco has rights too.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Mainsail]

In this case, my beef is not with Costco, but with those who responded to the 911 call. Unbelievable if accurate. Costco has rights too.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The death, in my opinion, is a direct result of Costco's secretive no-gun policy. If there were a sign on the door telling people that they were not welcome if they were armed, or if it were made plain that firearms were not allowed when you apply for membership, it is likely he would never have entered. Costco wants it both ways, guns are not allowed but they're not going to tell you unless they decide to. This allows them the luxery of ignoring some, while tossing others out.

Do you see the issue? That is exactly how gun control worked in the post civil war South. A white man could carry a firearm even though the law said that he could not; he had no fear of prosecution because the law was meant to apply only to blacks.

Costco could easily make their position plain, yet they choose not to. They have banned all private citizens from carrying firearms on their property, they just don't tell them.

 

[xxx.jakk.xxx]

Costco also handled the report very badly. It went from the initial employee, to the manager then to a plain clothes security officer to the 911 dispatch. Ever played that game where a message is whispered in a line of people from 1 to the next and when it gets back to you you laugh because of how distorted it was? I would have to say that a lot of the blame does belong to Costco.

 

[Bill Starks]

Costco also handled the report very badly. It went from the initial employee, to the manager then to a plain clothes security officer to the 911 dispatch. Ever played that game where a message is whispered in a line of people from 1 to the next and when it gets back to you you laugh because of how distorted it was? I would have to say that a lot of the blame does belong to Costco.

I agree...

my letter to Costco
In light of the recent shooting at the Las Vegas Costco location, I wish to know what, if any training is being done with the employees and security personnel? Eyewitness accounts & the various news agencies have stated the whole issue started with a Costco employee and or one of its contractors. A terrible thing has happened which from all accounts was caused by confusion. The confusion started from the Costco employee and it snowballed from there and because of this, a man is dead.
In the many years I have been a Costco customer I have not had an issue with my weapon in your facility however if the issue should arise I want to know that your employees and contractors are trained on their individual state laws regarding weapons carry.
I know that Costco has a "No Weapons" policy and that policy is to only allow law enforcement to carry in its stores. However, until Costco can ensure the safety of me and my family on each and every visit, I will continue to be their first line of defense and not rely on your security guard calling 9-1-1 and waiting the some 10 minutes for them to arrive.
I hold concealed firearm licenses from 4 states, I carry a concealed weapon as well as Open Carry my weapon where allowed. I am an Open Carry Gun rights advocate (Washington State Researcher) who has spoken before many city councils and State Senators on gun rights. I do not wish for an incident in the Seattle area like what has happened in Las Vegas.

 

[joejoejoe]

Is it your position that there can be no such things as rights in the absence of a "creator?"

If anyone understands the reason why the framers put "creator" in there, it wouldn't revoke your rights in the absence of one. Jefferson went through great pains to put the word creator in there.

-When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

This is the only place you see the word God in the text. He actually says "Nature's God" and not God. The founders did not want religion to corrupt the government, but Thomas Jefferson did not want the government to have full authority. He wanted the government to understand that we have "certain unalienable rights," and these rights are natural (or God given) to mankind. If they are NOT something a government gave, then they cannot be something a government can take.

So to answer your question, there is still such a thing as a right even in the absence of a creator.

Joe~

p.s. That being said, they are still God-given

 

[JoeSparky]

Is it your position that there can be no such things as rights in the absence of a "creator?"

Mr. Warden, may I suggest you read the Declaration of Independence! Would you feel better if it said "Nature's God"? Then use that phrasing to your liking!

 

[New Daddy]

IIRC, when you join Costco you sign a membership agreement and agree to abide by their rules - including their weapons policy. Since you've been notified in writing, I'm not sure why they would require a sign to notify you a second time.

 

[maclean]

The death, in my opinion, is a direct result of Costco's secretive no-gun policy. If there were a sign on the door telling people that they were not welcome if they were armed, or if it were made plain that firearms were not allowed when you apply for membership, it is likely he would never have entered.

If you believe someone under the influence of enough narcotic analgesics to kill you or I would have stopped, read the sign, reflected on it, and returned to his car - I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

It would seem prudent to put up a sign, but the incident in question has other variables.

 

[Mainsail]

IIRC, when you join Costco you sign a membership agreement and agree to abide by their rules - including their weapons policy. Since you've been notified in writing, I'm not sure why they would require a sign to notify you a second time.

I've spent the last 15 minutes pouring over their website, I don't see any policy on firearms. A google search didn't turn up any terms or conditions related to firearms. Did I miss something? I'm looking for it and I cannot find it. How would someone know?

 

[amzbrady]

Maybe we could ask if it would be ok to open carry if we unloaded and tied the slide back. If they said ok, would everyone be ok with that.

 

[xxx.jakk.xxx]

IIRC, when you join Costco you sign a membership agreement and agree to abide by their rules - including their weapons policy. Since you've been notified in writing, I'm not sure why they would require a sign to notify you a second time.

If I were to go in with my Mother or Grandfather, both members, then I'd be a guest. As a guest, I had no such agreement and was not informed by the company that I could not carry. Therefore, they have not notified me and I would be unknowingly breaking a rule because it isn't posted. =\

*Edit*
Benefits and Services
http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/08EX0629_ServBro.pdf

Complete booklet has no mention of a weapons, firearm or even violence policy. It does however say
"Our Privacy Statement outlines our policies and practices in detail."

I found their privacy statement.
http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=10166084
AGAIN, it has no mention of Weapons, Firearms or a violence policy.

Their Terms and Conditions
http://shop.costco.com/Legal/Terms-and-Conditions
... No mention...

Costco has absolutely no written policy that I can find. I cannot find the user agreement but so far their policies do not agree with their Firearm Policy that they state.

 

[gogodawgs]

I've spent the last 15 minutes pouring over their website, I don't see any policy on firearms. A google search didn't turn up any terms or conditions related to firearms. Did I miss something? I'm looking for it and I cannot find it. How would someone know?

There is no written policy.

 

[kittyhawk63]

Costco also handled the report very badly. It went from the initial employee, to the manager then to a plain clothes security officer to the 911 dispatch. Ever played that game where a message is whispered in a line of people from 1 to the next and when it gets back to you you laugh because of how distorted it was? I would have to say that a lot of the blame does belong to Costco.

I agree with this. As a teacher I did this with my students to show them how gossip can run afoul. The last student responded with a line that made us all laugh but was nowhere close to what I had told the first student. It would not surprise me that the POs who responded to the call were told that a wild man was waving a gun threatening to kill the next illegal Mexican that walked into the store. However, I am of the opinion that some loose cannon officer is directly responsible for this man's death. Costco is also responsible. The store should have had the first person talk to the police and tell what he saw and the discussion that he had with the man. I believe things would have gone down differently. This is the chance we take each time we decide to Open Carry. Every large PD has some idiot looking to shoot somebody. It was Eric's day to meet one. Rest in peace Eric.

 

[END_THE_FED]

May the Flying Spagetti Monster touch you with his noodly appendage. RAmen.

LOL, A good friend of mine, who is in the ARMY tried to put "Pastafarian" as his religion on his dog tags. It didn't go over so well.

 

[Kryteon]

Help me figure this out

Costco also handled the report very badly. It went from the initial employee, to the manager then to a plain clothes security officer to the 911 dispatch. Ever played that game where a message is whispered in a line of people from 1 to the next and when it gets back to you you laugh because of how distorted it was? I would have to say that a lot of the blame does belong to Costco.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Costco calls 911, the cops shoot a man. Costco is wrong.
A citizen calls 911 MWAG, the cops ask the man for ID. The cops are wrong.

So, its okay to pump a guy full of bullets, but not to ask for ID, as long as none of the calls came from Costco?

Just checking.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[oneeyeross]

While Jefferson didn't rely on "God" he did rely on Locke, Hobbes and Rousseau for a lot of his text, and they DID rely on God (given the time period and their sponsors, however, they didn't have a choice).

Too many of us have never read the originators that brought about our founding documents. I heartily recommend that everyone get around to reading them, as they can:

John Locke: http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Locke/Default.htm

Thomas Hobbes: http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php?title=1738

Jean Jacques Rousseau: http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php?title=1738

(With Rousseau, particularly read "The Social Contract")