Email from Lt. Wilson

[gregma]

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Perhaps I am misinterpreting his letter...

Wilson confirmed that Steve had a firearm drawn on him (not "pointed" at him, he made an excuse for that). He confirmed that this was done "because they were going to disarm him". I saw nothing about this not being anything other than part of the training they received.

Wilson confirmed that OPD will *never* "get used to" (accept) citizens carrying firearms. I repeat *never*. Again that is a part of the training they received.

Wilson stated that we need to stop doing this "because we might get *SHOT*.

The *only* issue Wilson had with the entire encounter was the main thug's verbal interactions with Steve. NOT the stop, NOT the disarming, NOT the firearm out of the holster. In fact he accepted all of these action from 3 cops that "were fully trained in OC encounters".

Yeah, I guess we just need to be patient, civil, "open a dialogue" while they are being trained to stop all lawful OC'ers, draw a weapon on them, disarm them. :what:

 

[sv_libertarian]

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Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

 

[gregma]

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

I know for a fact that you are hard at work "behind the scenes". I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.
He will more than likely be forced to cave now that this is out in the public and you are pressing hard, but he is NOT on our side, and never has been.
I know with your diligent work he won't come over to our side, but he will reluctantly accept our position.

If I came off as sounding like you weren't fighting tooth and nail to get this corrected, I strongly apologize. I know there are a lot more things going "behind the scenes" and you aren't going to play softball any longer. I'm behind you 1000%!

 

[sv_libertarian]

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No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

 

[gregma]

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sv_libertarian wrote:

No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

Well, let's not go THERE! But I WILL take the donuts :lol:

 

[Mainsail]

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gregma wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

I know for a fact that you are hard at work "behind the scenes". I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.
He will more than likely be forced to cave now that this is out in the public and you are pressing hard, but he is NOT on our side, and never has been.
I know with your diligent work he won't come over to our side, but he will reluctantly accept our position.

If I came off as sounding like you weren't fighting tooth and nail to get this corrected, I strongly apologize. I know there are a lot more things going "behind the scenes" and you aren't going to play softball any longer. I'm behind you 1000%!

Mantra? Where are you hearing a mantra? I think we’ve divided into two camps, one says ‘they are all corrupt thugs’ and others are saying ‘how about if we don’t rush to judge’.

Seriously, what is your solution? Fire the entire police force?
Bear in mind, Lt Wilson could have simply deleted SV’s email right from the beginning. He wasn’t under any obligation to even respond to a private citizen, but he did.

 

[dng]

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sv_libertarian wrote:

No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

Don't take this aspersonal attack, this is just some friendly advice/ (my 2 cents). This is whatwill give OCers a bad reputation if we are not careful. I know you're joking, and it's funny to some people, but why antagonize the department? You know that someone from the city or department will probably read that. Why not take the high road? I might be alone on this, but I was taught to treat others the way I wanted to be treated. It just seems that comments like that will do NOTHING to help the situation or lead anyone to be more receptive to OC. We all stand for a cause that is bigger and more important than ourselves. Every time an officer with that department who has followed this situation sees an OCer, his perception will be based on how you conduct yourself. Just some food for thought.

 

[American Rattlesnake]

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gregma wrote:

I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.

Please don't misrepresent what I and others have written.

Noone has said that this situation is rosy, just that Steve is doing things right by trying to work with the system and that we should be patient to see what comes of the effort.

Noone said Wilson is working hard for us....just that he should be given the benefit of the doubt. If Lt. Wilson doesn't do the job he was hired to do, then he should be dealt with in light of that. Likewise if he does do the job right.

ETA: Oops, looks like I got beat to the punch. Mainsail said it better.

 

[gregma]

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American Rattlesnake wrote:

gregma wrote:

I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.

Noone said Wilson is working hard for us....just that he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

True, we sure should give the person that stated "might get shot" the benefit of the doubt. We sure should give the person that explained that OPD is trained to draw on lawful OC'ers the benefit of the doubt. We sure should give the person that explained that OPD is trained to disarm lawful OC'ers the benefit of the doubt.

A bad encounter happened. Wilson was informed and he "handled" it with proper training. An even WORSE enountered happened by "fully trained and seasoned officers" afterwards. But we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Be my guest, give him as much benefit of the doubt as you want. Not I. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me TWICE...

 

[gregma]

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dngreer wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

It just seems that comments like that will do NOTHING to help the situation or lead anyone to be more receptive to OC.

The comment was directed towards me (I believe). The Peace, love, donuts were for me, not for the OPD. And I at least accepted the donuts!

 

[gregma]

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Mainsail wrote:

gregma wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

I know for a fact that you are hard at work "behind the scenes". I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.
He will more than likely be forced to cave now that this is out in the public and you are pressing hard, but he is NOT on our side, and never has been.
I know with your diligent work he won't come over to our side, but he will reluctantly accept our position.

If I came off as sounding like you weren't fighting tooth and nail to get this corrected, I strongly apologize. I know there are a lot more things going "behind the scenes" and you aren't going to play softball any longer. I'm behind you 1000%!

Mantra? Where are you hearing a mantra? I think we’ve divided into two camps, one says ‘they are all corrupt thugs’ and others are saying ‘how about if we don’t rush to judge’.

Seriously, what is your solution? Fire the entire police force?
Bear in mind, Lt Wilson could have simply deleted SV’s email right from the beginning. He wasn’t under any obligation to even respond to a private citizen, but he did.

Actually Wilson IS the public go-to-guy. That's actually his position on the force. So yes, he does indeed have an obligation to repond to a private citizen...

You may not wish to "judge", but he's already lied at least twice. That's once more than I will tolerate.

 

[Mainsail]

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gregma wrote:

Mainsail wrote:

gregma wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

I know for a fact that you are hard at work "behind the scenes". I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.
He will more than likely be forced to cave now that this is out in the public and you are pressing hard, but he is NOT on our side, and never has been.
I know with your diligent work he won't come over to our side, but he will reluctantly accept our position.

If I came off as sounding like you weren't fighting tooth and nail to get this corrected, I strongly apologize. I know there are a lot more things going "behind the scenes" and you aren't going to play softball any longer. I'm behind you 1000%!

Mantra? Where are you hearing a mantra? I think we’ve divided into two camps, one says ‘they are all corrupt thugs’ and others are saying ‘how about if we don’t rush to judge’.

Seriously, what is your solution? Fire the entire police force?
Bear in mind, Lt Wilson could have simply deleted SV’s email right from the beginning. He wasn’t under any obligation to even respond to a private citizen, but he did.

Actually Wilson IS the public go-to-guy. That's actually his position on the force. So yes, he does indeed have an obligation to repond to a private citizen...

You may not wish to "judge", but he's already lied at least twice. That's once more than I will tolerate.

Cite please.

 

[gregma]

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Mainsail wrote:

gregma wrote:

Mainsail wrote:

gregma wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Well I still have issues with it. Also, I made a formal complaint about O'Neill's behavior, and the fact the gun was drawn, as well as to the validity of the entire stop. It may be he can't discuss much now that it is being investigated. I am talking with Mayor Foutch (the City Manager does not like returning emails...) about this matter as well.

In fact I just wrote him an email...

I know for a fact that you are hard at work "behind the scenes". I just question some peoples "everything is rosy and peachy and Wilson is working hard for us" mantra.
He will more than likely be forced to cave now that this is out in the public and you are pressing hard, but he is NOT on our side, and never has been.
I know with your diligent work he won't come over to our side, but he will reluctantly accept our position.

If I came off as sounding like you weren't fighting tooth and nail to get this corrected, I strongly apologize. I know there are a lot more things going "behind the scenes" and you aren't going to play softball any longer. I'm behind you 1000%!

Mantra? Where are you hearing a mantra? I think we’ve divided into two camps, one says ‘they are all corrupt thugs’ and others are saying ‘how about if we don’t rush to judge’.

Seriously, what is your solution? Fire the entire police force?
Bear in mind, Lt Wilson could have simply deleted SV’s email right from the beginning. He wasn’t under any obligation to even respond to a private citizen, but he did.

Actually Wilson IS the public go-to-guy. That's actually his position on the force. So yes, he does indeed have an obligation to repond to a private citizen...

You may not wish to "judge", but he's already lied at least twice. That's once more than I will tolerate.

Cite please.

Read my earlier post in this thread.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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Early on in this thread the statement was made to the effect that all officers go thru extensive testing and training before being hired. Well I had an interesting conversation with and former officer (when he worked Westnet (narcotics task force) he had more arrests and convictions than any other officer in the state)that resigned rather than do the status quo. He informed me that there were about 12,000 LEO slots in this state at this time. He also say there are over 2500 of those slots empty because of so many LEOs were activated with their guard and reserve units and the high number of good officers quitting because of poor pay and benefits and very poor administration and then there is the poor working conditions. So it would appear to me that the chances of meeting an abusive cop are higher than ever in this state.

 

[BB62]

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Mainsail wrote:

Mantra? Where are you hearing a mantra? I think we’ve divided into two camps, one says ‘they are all corrupt thugs’ and others are saying ‘how about if we don’t rush to judge’...

I disagree. I am not a part of either group.

I have responded according to the tone and content of the Lt.'s communication directly, not generalizing. I would classify myself as being between the two camps you described, slightly toward (but not on) the "thug" side - SOLELY because of what the Lt. said (or didn't) and how he said it.

I think there area number of people who feel as I do, because of personal experiences, plus their take on what they have read from the Lt.

As Gregma noted, and I agree -it should be noted that "The *only* issue Wilson had with the entire encounter was the main thug's verbal interactions with Steve. NOT the stop, NOT the disarming, NOT the firearm out of the holster. In fact he accepted all of these action from 3 cops that "were fully trained in OC encounters"." (I disagree only with the use of the word "thug")



BB62

 

[sv_libertarian]

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dngreer wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

Don't take this aspersonal attack, this is just some friendly advice/ (my 2 cents). This is whatwill give OCers a bad reputation if we are not careful. I know you're joking, and it's funny to some people, but why antagonize the department? You know that someone from the city or department will probably read that. Why not take the high road? I might be alone on this, but I was taught to treat others the way I wanted to be treated. It just seems that comments like that will do NOTHING to help the situation or lead anyone to be more receptive to OC. We all stand for a cause that is bigger and more important than ourselves. Every time an officer with that department who has followed this situation sees an OCer, his perception will be based on how you conduct yourself. Just some food for thought.

Huh? I was telling Gregma I wasn't offended at him. "Peace, love, donuts, etc..." I needed something goofy at the tail end, and I was thinking of breakfast. Dang. This wasn't directed at cops at all.

 

[joeroket]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Early on in this thread the statement was made to the effect that all officers go thru extensive testing and training before being hired. Well I had an interesting conversation with and former officer (when he worked Westnet (narcotics task force) he had more arrests and convictions than any other officer in the state)that resigned rather than do the status quo. He informed me that there were about 12,000 LEO slots in this state at this time. He also say there are over 2500 of those slots empty because of so many LEOs were activated with their guard and reserve units and the high number of good officers quitting because of poor pay and benefits and very poor administration and then there is the poor working conditions. So it would appear to me that the chances of meeting an abusive cop are higher than ever in this state.

I can agree with this to an extent. It would not suprise me one bit that there is a 20% shortage of officers. One of the reasons is that they are having difficulties finding qualified, to thier standards, people to fill the slots. Now I do know for a fact that the requirments have been decreased drastically in the last 10-15 years. Hell 15 years ago any cocaine use was disqualifying. Today most departments only disqualify if the cocaine use was less than 5 years ago. So the quality and caliber of todays newer officers are in decline.

I personally know quite a few that would like nothing more than to tell thier dept's to stuff it up thier butts.

 

[sv_libertarian]

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gregma wrote:

dngreer wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

No worries Gregma. Peace, love, donuts, etc...

It just seems that comments like that will do NOTHING to help the situation or lead anyone to be more receptive to OC.

The comment was directed towards me (I believe). The Peace, love, donuts were for me, not for the OPD. And I at least accepted the donuts!

 

[Johnny Law]

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joeroket wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Early on in this thread the statement was made to the effect that all officers go thru extensive testing and training before being hired. Well I had an interesting conversation with and former officer (when he worked Westnet (narcotics task force) he had more arrests and convictions than any other officer in the state)that resigned rather than do the status quo. He informed me that there were about 12,000 LEO slots in this state at this time. He also say there are over 2500 of those slots empty because of so many LEOs were activated with their guard and reserve units and the high number of good officers quitting because of poor pay and benefits and very poor administration and then there is the poor working conditions. So it would appear to me that the chances of meeting an abusive cop are higher than ever in this state.

I can agree with this to an extent. It would not suprise me one bit that there is a 20% shortage of officers. One of the reasons is that they are having difficulties finding qualified, to thier standards, people to fill the slots. Now I do know for a fact that the requirments have been decreased drastically in the last 10-15 years. Hell 15 years ago any cocaine use was disqualifying. Today most departments only disqualify if the cocaine use was less than 5 years ago. So the quality and caliber of todays newer officers are in decline.

I personally know quite a few that would like nothing more than to tell thier dept's to stuff it up thier butts.

ItHAS become increasingly hard to find qualified applicants as of late. There are fewer people applying, and Dept's are now competing with each other over pay scales/sign on bonusesthat attract the applicants.

I can't vouch for all other Dept's Joe, but mine has not lowered any hiring standards, nor will they. I would be more than upset if they ever did. Tacoma P.D. for instance raised theirs recently due to the Brame incident, and damn well they should.

Some of the older Officers may have came on board in a time when the standards were not as stringent, and that may account for some of the personnel issues. I find that the newer Officers (at least where I work) are very squared away, and I have often been impressed with their skills. As I said, every Dept. is different and I can only speak for mine.

 

[heresolong]

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I have been dealing with Bellingham PD for years regarding the definition of a "legal" motorcycle helmet. It has been my experience that the two worst officers on the force are fairly old and been around for a while. They "know" the law and you are wrong, regardless of the facts.