Engage or not engage?

[RetiredOC]

You have more sense to believe someone has to be able to see you to shoot you. Plenty of times people have been shot without the shooters knowledge that they were even there. But all it takes is one lucky (or unlucky) bullet to kill someone, even if they aren't seen.

Cover is different from concealment. Hiding behind a car door or under a pile of pine cones is concealment. Hiding in a freaking house would be cover AND concealment in my opinion < given the situation. Remeber, the stiatuion is a kid is outside aiming a rifle at you. Would a house be cover if we were hiding from an A-10? A pick up truck with a .50BMG machine gun? Probably not, but this isn't that scenario.

So with that in mind, Schlitz, (absolutely horrid choice of beer, btw) let's flip things around a bit. Put yourself in my shoes- same scenario, only Im standing downrange @ approx. 75m with a rifle/caliber of your choice, and a decent scope. Care to wager how far from that table and window you'd get before I got a couple of rounds into you? Now, if you had a firearm at hand in that situation- would you actually be trying to make a run for it? Or would you be considering getting that firearm ready-time permitting?

Bro, it doesn't matter if my AR is right next to the table, if I look up and you're already AIMED at me I'm hitting the deck. Once someone is already aiming at you, given this specific scenario, hitting the deck is your only option.

Now just because you've hit the deck that doesn't mean you stay in one spot, 09jusaac, because if they do start shooting they know where they saw you dropped. So you've got your whole house to crawl around to an even safer area while you dial 911 and remain armed incase this turns into a home invasion.

This is not just my opinion, it is common sense GIVEN THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO. If you look out your window and see a squad of chinese infantry closing in on your home then sure, fire away and go down with the ship, but this is a kid outside 75m away already aimed at you ready to fire. Get down, call 911, and remain armed. Easy mode.

 

[09jisaac]

Cover is different from concealment. Hiding behind a car door or under a pile of pine cones is concealment. Hiding in a freaking house would be cover AND concealment in my opinion < given the situation. Remeber, the stiatuion is a kid is outside aiming a rifle at you. Would a house be cover if we were hiding from an A-10? A pick up truck with a .50BMG machine gun? Probably not, but this isn't that scenario.



Bro, it doesn't matter if my AR is right next to the table, if I look up and you're already AIMED at me I'm hitting the deck. Once someone is already aiming at you, given this specific scenario, hitting the deck is your only option.

Now just because you've hit the deck that doesn't mean you stay in one spot, 09jusaac, because if they do start shooting they know where they saw you dropped. So you've got your whole house to crawl around to an even safer area while you dial 911 and remain armed incase this turns into a home invasion.

This is not just my opinion, it is common sense GIVEN THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO. If you look out your window and see a squad of chinese infantry closing in on your home then sure, fire away and go down with the ship, but this is a kid outside 75m away already aimed at you ready to fire. Get down, call 911, and remain armed. Easy mode.

Really? Thats why I said RELATIVE safety at best. Most outside walls offer little protection against pistol rounds, let alone a rifle round. And it is very difficult do distinguish between a .22 from a high powered rifle while you are laying flat of your chest. This specific situation is that OP would have been safe if he would have been away from the window. But when I said he should have readied his rifle I didn't know he lived in a bunker. But even so, OP shouldn't have to fear his life as he nears a window.

And crawl somewhere? If I wanted to kill someone who hit the deck, I would aim low at the DOOR WAY that they would have to crawl through to get to the rest of the house.

And it is your opinion, my opinion would be to make it clear that you are willing to take that kids life if he don't shoulder that weapon and move on. I never once said I would shoot him, but he wouldn't guess that I wouldn't by the way I had a .308 aimed at his head. The way I see it, he knows right from wrong and he is, to the best of my knowledge, capable of murder.

 

[RetiredOC]

nd crawl somewhere? If I wanted to kill someone who hit the deck, I would aim low at the DOOR WAY that they would have to crawl through to get to the rest of the house.

Now we are assuming the kid knows the lay out of the inside of the home and the locations of doorways? OP said he was inside of his home and the .22 wielder was outside 75 m away. You're telling me from 75m away looking into a window this guy could know the layout of the home/locations of doorways?

I never once said I would shoot him

If you are going to draw a gun with the idea that you aren't going to shoot it do you really think it is your last resort? This sounds like escalating a situation, not defusing it.

and on another note: Why would you aim your gun at someone who is aiming at you and not shoot them?


If someone is already drawn on you I think pulling your own firearm before going for cover is incredibly stupid. They are already aiming at you. It's too late. (unless you simply don't have cover and it's do or die - in this scenario the op was at his home...INSIDE HIS HOUSE)

 

[thebigsd]

SNIP If someone is already drawn on you I think pulling your own firearm before going for cover is incredibly stupid. They are already aiming at you. It's too late. (unless you simply don't have cover and it's do or die - in this scenario the op was at his home...INSIDE HIS HOUSE)

Gosh dang it, I can't believe I am agreeing with Schlitz twice in the same thread.

He's exactly right. If someone is staring at you down a scope do your really think you'll be able to draw and fire accurately before they get a shot off?

 

[09jisaac]

He don't have to know, he could look through the WINDOWS and see the doors...... : ) That is something only a spy could figure out though.

And just because I said "I never said I would shoot him" don't mean "I wouldn't shoot him."

Scenario: You're in a gas station paying for your stuff and some guy sticks a gun to your head. You manage to get your weapon out and aimed at him. He lays his on the ground. Do you still shoot him? If not then you wouldn't have shot him, judging by your logic.

If the situation allows it you make one move at a time. Sometimes the show of force stops a threat, sometimes you need to use force to stop it.

And if I would have used my logic in this situation it probably would have turned out good. After a camera was pointed at the boy he left, a .308 would have made him run.

 

[SourKraut]

Did I say "ridiculous"?

I meant to say completly delusional. Do you really believe that you are going to get your gun out in time while some drugged up armed robber has a pistol pressed against your temple? And, how exactly did you get yourself into such a prediciment?

 

[j4l]

Gosh dang it, I can't believe I am agreeing with Schlitz twice in the same thread.

He's exactly right. If someone is staring at you down a scope do your really think you'll be able to draw and fire accurately before they get a shot off?

Not at all. I didnt REALLY think the guy was going to shoot, per se, hence I picked up a camera instead of the .45 on my hip. BUT the entire situation made me re-think/re-consider the scenario. Food for thought is what this is for.. We have the luxury here of thinking through a situation that one may face.
One a bit outside the box of the typical, across-the-room/down the hall of your house intruder/facing down armed robbers on the street -type scenarios we tend to most often think of in here.

 

[thebigsd]

Not at all. I didnt REALLY think the guy was going to shoot, per se, hence I picked up a camera instead of the .45 on my hip. BUT the entire situation made me re-think/re-consider the scenario. Food for thought is what this is for.. We have the luxury here of thinking through a situation that one may face.
One a bit outside the box of the typical, across-the-room/down the hall of your house intruder/facing down armed robbers on the street -type scenarios we tend to most often think of in here.

Sorry, that response wasn't directed at you personally. It was more of a general statement/question. As for the scenario, I am glad you brought it up because this way we can all debate it.

 

[jayspapa]

Ok , I have to ask this. Are you certain the kid was lined up on you or could he have been watching a squirrel/bird on your roof line? I am not trying to justify his actions. Even if he was doing as I suggested , it was a very stupid and unsafe action to take.

The law should have had a talk with the young man and his father. I would hope they did.

As far as engaging in this scenario , I think the only way you could get away with it is if you had incoming rounds that busted the window /stuck in the interior walls . I also hope you have a few cameras pointed at a farther distance now.

 

[09jisaac]

I meant to say completly delusional. Do you really believe that you are going to get your gun out in time while some drugged up armed robber has a pistol pressed against your temple? And, how exactly did you get yourself into such a prediciment?

I never once said it was LIKELY to happen. I was pointing out that just because the use of lethal force is justified don't mean its necessary and you need to make the call if it is or not the split second before you (would have) squeezed the trigger.

You just know what you're told don't you? You can't think for yourself or wrap your mind around a "what if" scenario. Maybe someone was trying to leave the store so the gunman moved his weapon off of you. When his mind isn't on you then you have time to pull.

I don't know what it is about some people that you can't talk the "what if"s with em. They think everything is soo unlikely and yet it happens. Clerks pull weapons all the time when the gunman is trying to grab for the til or something. But someone who was just purchasing his gas can't, right?

 

[SourKraut]

You just know what you're told don't you? You can't think for yourself or wrap your mind around a "what if" scenario. .

Tell me, 09jisaac, who is doing the thinking for me?

I will tell you right off that I have no problem wraping my head around fantasy, I just don't base my actions on what I see at the theater.

Just so I make myself prefectly clear,-Who Is Doing The Thinking For Me?

I don't need to bump heads, but if that is your goal I might straighten you right out!

 

[j4l]

Ok, ladies, lighten up- I wasnt trying to start WWIII with this thing- just putting a topic/potential scenario for folks to consider, and to see what the consensus would be regarding a course of action in such a situation. Must everything we all discuss in this place always break down into sounding like a bunch of toddlers going at it over the crayons?
There are potential situations beyond the "typical" SD/HD incidents that we always seem to focus on. The point is, what about these other types of situations-
And no, they are NOT fantasies-just because they dont fit into any one neat, typical box.

 

[j4l]

Ok , I have to ask this. Are you certain the kid was lined up on you or could he have been watching a squirrel/bird on your roof line? I am not trying to justify his actions. Even if he was doing as I suggested , it was a very stupid and unsafe action to take.

The law should have had a talk with the young man and his father. I would hope they did.

As far as engaging in this scenario , I think the only way you could get away with it is if you had incoming rounds that busted the window /stuck in the interior walls . I also hope you have a few cameras pointed at a farther distance now.

I had considered the possibility in that first instant I looked over and saw him- 2nd instant was- if I have to return fire- is anything/anyone in my path between me and him-(there is another home between my place and his,just out of view to the left of the photo)- so i scanned around- there wasnt so much as a gnat that I could see between us.
The moment he saw me reach for the camera with the 200mm lense, through his scope, he broke off, shouldered the rifle and walked off. (that's the pic I was able to get off of him, when he did so) -that alone tells me plenty -that he was scoped in, and saw what I did, and knew I was about to have a photo of him doing what he was doing.

 

[sidestreet]

T o answer the question...,

I guess my first instinct would be to duck and seek some kind of cover to where I might get a better look at things and see if I could figure out what was going on, so not engage right away. i gotta tell ya' though, I'd have a fairly hard time knowing if a rifle (scoped or not) from 75 yards/meters away was pointed directly at me or something near me, slightly in front or behind me, or just outside in my yard.

In looking at the picture you posted without the telephoto, it looks like in the middle left of the picture there is a squirrel perched on a limb. All things considered, is it just possible that the kid was scoping the squirrel, and never saw you at all, and maybe thought "what the hel* am I doing, some one might think I'm shooting at their house", and then beat feet down the road? A scoped .22 is a pretty fun squirrel gun, but I agree it's no fun when you and your house get a firearm pointed in your direction.

Let me go you one further, suppose that you looked out and saw someone in tactical gear, scoped rifle, pointing it in the direction of you and your house, what are your thoughts then? SWAT team, military maneuvers, terrorists, DOC looking for escapee, etc., etc., etc.,?

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

 

[Steeler-gal]

Install a security camera - or two or three. Point at least one at his property. Next time he's using you as target practice at least you'll have it recorded and you can share that with local and federal authorities. I would call local and federal authorities EVERY time he points a weapon in your direction.

As for engaging. I wouldn't engage, but I would open and blatantly OC around my house and yard and make certain he knew you were armed and at the ready at all times.

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

It is easy to see that he was using his scope to watch you..
as soon as he saw you notice him, he redirected his gun away.

I WOULD have armed up.
I WOULD have STORMED!!! over to his yard and confronted him, in his FACE,
I WOULD have taken his gun away!
I WOULD have told his daddy, what I DID and WHY!!!

 

[Mayhem]

"someone about 75+m away is aiming a scoped rifle at you from the property of a neighbor...
Engage? or not? "

Can identify that they have a rifle AND do have a firearm capable accurately reaching them AND is there going to be a danger to any innocent people behind them?


"Should it be taken as/considered a direct/imminent threat? whether he gets off a shot or no?"


Any gun pointed in my direction WILL be considered a direct and imminent threat! The factor that will make me decide if I need to shoot will be if I have a chance to escape and find cover.

Sure, I could fire back and take a life. Nobody should have to wait for someone else to fire first. But in this scenario, I would quickly seek cover inside and dial 9-1-1. My handgun is not going to reach him and if I fire first... he could claim I fired at him while he was walking by minding his own business.

I would keep him in sight and stay on the phone so I could inform the police if he relocates. They may need my help to direct them to where he is at and need his description.

Now I am going to be armed in case he starts shooting at me or starts to advance on my house. If there is a chase his weapon can get me, I will have no choice but to return fire while waiting for the police. But at least... they will know and hear all that is happening so I am covered.

 

[j4l]

Install a security camera - or two or three. Point at least one at his property. Next time he's using you as target practice at least you'll have it recorded and you can share that with local and federal authorities. I would call local and federal authorities EVERY time he points a weapon in your direction.

As for engaging. I wouldn't engage, but I would open and blatantly OC around my house and yard and make certain he knew you were armed and at the ready at all times.

Some of my existing cams are being re-directed to take in this angle. Previously, they'd been oriented at certain approaches to my perimeter only, and along each side of the house.
As for OC, I OC at all times in and around the house anyway, and everyone out here is fully aware of it. (there's only 8 of us out here anyway) I practice and train frequently on my own grounds,so they've heard even when they havent seen. Which also makes me wonder what kind of idiot points a rifle at someone they know full well is always armed, and could-in theory- send some rounds back their way in return?

He's not the brightest kid on earth to begin with. And, not that Im against home-schooling per se (except that those doing the schooling should have a wee bit of intelligence to begin with..--this bunch clearly doesnt) but this kid and his sister are NEVER in a school during school hours, so I have to assume they are either always truant, or being home-schooled. Apprently, common-sense just isnt on the ciriculum there.. :banghead:

So, I always have the sidearm on me, plus one or more of my knives. I keep the 870 near one of the doors at all times, but it looks as though I may need to begin to sling the thing, and have it with me outdoors, until they "get it" or something. Or at least secure it nearby when outside working around the house...
One reason Im considering something along the lines of a small carbine-perhaps a SUB 2000- even though I dont much care for either of the calibers its available in..Would be a handy, stowable little ligh-weight item to have on hand, and more than capable of handling the possible engagement distances I face without being overkill..

 

[okboomer]

j4l

Wow! Scary scenario!

As for your question of take the shot or not ... no way unless he fires first. As for not going for concealment, well, I can understand ... and getting the photo ... good that you got it, but it doesn't show him with the gun aimed at your house which it sounds like what you will need to get the cops to actually do anything.

As for talking to the parents ... well, right now you only have the kid harrassing you, but how about the father harrassing you? Six of one, half a dozen of the other in this case.

My personal recommendation would be to do as you are, gather enough evidence to force LEO to take action. Until then, Code Yellow. Sucks, but that is IMHO your only option at this point.

As for the other incident, do you still have the round that killed your dog? You can send that round to the state police lab so that if/when the little punks are finally caught, there is evidence to prove that they at least used the gun at your property at a specific time with a police report filed.

Another option for the kid with the .22 would be if you know someone who is friends with the family that you could talk to about the incident who would be able to broach the subject with the family over the lack of gun safety shown by the kid. Also, in most states, a hunter safety certification can be revoked so you might look into that aspect, too.

As for a long gun, have you considered a lever action chambered in .45? It would not require another caliber, and they are very accurate at a midrange distance (300yds +/-). You can get them in shorter barrel lengths in case of need in close quarters and they generally hold 10-14 rounds.

 

[j4l]

Ya, pretty much what Im doing for now.
No round from the previous incident- it was a shotgun- no way to recover or do ballistics on those, and dog was cremated after.
Considered, and am still considering, a Marlin in .45, actually. Need to try one out first, though.