Examiner.com: Don't be a gun dork in traffic stops

[Neo]

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Gordon Shumway wrote:

<snip>
Certainly I agree, but I disagree....

LEOs get golden points for contriving and trapping innocent people into situations that they can be detained and arrested. Remember, even if you win in court, the LEO keeps his gold star and you are still out $$$ for defense.

In these situations you are a loser from the get-go....

That's what some law enforcement agencies would like for us to think. You are not necessarily a loser from the get-go and you can come out financially on top. Please see these2 threads for real-life examples of individuals who have fought and won 5-figure ($21,000 in the first case) settlements.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum39/32136.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum26/12851.html

Whether or not an officer is disciplined may depend on how far you're willing to push beyond settlement. Perhaps a federal color-of-law suit would be in order.

 

[Grapeshot]

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Mike wrote:

James wrote:

Someone should compile a list of "must notify" states.

Great idea - another thing we can throw on the back of John Pierce the poor webmaster!

Does anyone have a handy list of "shall notify states." we can make a map on this.

I would also like to make map on "shall accept states" to encourage more states to become shall accept states on guncarry permits.

I separate thread w/sticky could be posted requesting info on each state with specific cites re; notification to LEO or not, when in vehicle or not.

Perhaps someone will come forward with such a list shortly, negating the need.

By "shall accept states," I presume you mean either by reciprocity or by recognition.
Same thought on starting a separate thread on this as above.

Yata hey

 

[Mike]

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Grapeshot wrote:

By "shall accept states," I presume you mean either by reciprocity or by recognition.

No - just that they accept everybody's permit, period, like Arizona and a few other states; I think draft legislation in Iowa would do same.

 

[Dreamer]

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Mike wrote:

Great idea - another thing we can throw on the back of John Pierce the poor webmaster!

Does anyone have a handy list of "shall notify states." we can make a map on this.

I would also like to make map on "shall accept states" to encourage more states to become shall accept states on guncarry permits.

I'm working on this.

I've got a text table made from the data I am collecting from www.usacarry.com and the NRA-ILA website, but it's a tough set of data to translate to a map. Most states are pretty straightforward on "must inform", but there are a few states that leave that policy to local authorities.

California, for example, varies by county as to "must inform" for CC.

Several states have a "must inform upon request/demand", but do NOT specifically say you have to inform "upon first contact". Some of the "must inform" states ALSO require you provide another form of stat-issued ID, some don't. Some "inform upon request" states require additional ID, some do not.

It would take at least 6 different "color keys" to color-code a map, and even then, there would be several states with "footnotes" because of their wonky statutes...

Luckily, I am a Graduate MFA student, with a concentration in Graphic Design. If there is ANY way to get this convoluted data into an easily understandable graphical form, I can probably figure it out.

Hopefully I can get the data all sorted out in the next day or two, and I can have a map (in the OCDO style) posted by Sunday or Monday. I'll post the data list in it's own thread for comment, because there may be some policies in some of the vague states that "people on the street" know about through experience.

Any help from folks out there is GREATLY appreciated.

Please stay tuned...

 

[Mike]

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Dreamer wrote:

Mike wrote:

Great idea - another thing we can throw on the back of John Pierce the poor webmaster!

Does anyone have a handy list of "shall notify states." we can make a map on this.

I would also like to make map on "shall accept states" to encourage more states to become shall accept states on guncarry permits.

I'm working on this.

I've got a text table made from the data I am collecting from http://www.usacarry.com and the NRA-ILA website, but it's a tough set of data to translate to a map. Most states are pretty straightforward on "must inform", but there are a few states that leave that policy to local authorities.

California, for example, varies by county as to "must inform" for CC.

Several states have a "must inform upon request/demand", but do NOT specifically say you have to inform "upon first contact". Some of the "must inform" states ALSO require you provide another form of stat-issued ID, some don't. Some "inform upon request" states require additional ID, some do not.

It would take at least 6 different "color keys" to color-code a map, and even then, there would be several states with "footnotes" because of their wonky statutes...

Luckily, I am a Graduate MFA student, with a concentration in Graphic Design. If there is ANY way to get this convoluted data into an easily understandable graphical form, I can probably figure it out.

Hopefully I can get the data all sorted out in the next day or two, and I can have a map (in the OCDO style) posted by Sunday or Monday. I'll post the data list in it's own thread for comment, because there may be some policies in some of the vague states that "people on the street" know about through experience.

Any help from folks out there is GREATLY appreciated.

Please stay tuned...

OK, the only map we are going to post here at OCDO is one that is very simple - carry policies are preempted in Calif. so forget about tracking local stuff - just track down the states which require the permit holder to notify upon contact with a police officer if carrying per permit

 

[Grapeshot]

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Foot notes to be added when clicking on each state as in other maps?

Yata hey

 

[JimMullinsWVCDL]

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Mike wrote:

I would also like to make map on "shall accept states" to encourage more states to become shall accept states on guncarry permits.

My research shows that in the area of concealed carry reciprocity laws, there are:

• 10 universal recognition (or shall-accept) states. Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 13-3112(U)-(W) (2006): Idaho Code Ann. §18-3302(12)(g) (1996): Ind. Code § 35-47-2-21 (1983): Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 237.110(20) (prior enactments and codifications of universal recognition date to 1998): Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.231a(1)(a) (prior enactments and codifications of universal recognition date to 1927): Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.030(4) (2003): Okla. Stat. tit. 21: § 1290.26 (2003): S.D. Codified Laws § 23-7-7.4 (2005): Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(r) (2003): Utah Code Ann. § 76-10-523(2)(b) (prior enactments and codifications of universal recognition date to 2001).
  
• 10 automatic reciprocity states. Ala. Code 13A-11-85 (2001). Ark. Code Ann. § 5-73-402 (2007): Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-12-213 (2003, 2007): Fla. Stat. § 790.015 (1999): Ga. Code Ann. §§ 16-11-126(e) and 128(c) (1996): La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 40:1379.3(T)(1) (2004): Miss. Code Ann. § 45-9-101(19) (2004): N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 159:6-d (1993): N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.24 (2003): N.D. Cent. Code § 62.1-04-04 (1997).
  
• 8 conditional recognition states. Kan. Stat. Ann. § 75-7c03(c) (2006): Minn. Stat. § 624.714 subd. 16 (2005): Mont. Code Ann. § 45-8-329(1) (1995). Neb. Rev. Stat. § 69-2448 (2009): Nev. Rev. Stat. §§ 202.3688-3689 (2007): N.M. Stat. Ann. § 29-19-12(E) (2005): Tex. Gov. Code § 411.173(b) (2005): Va. Code § 18.2-308(P) (2004).
  
• 8 conditional reciprocity states. Del. Code Ann. Tit. 11, § 1441(j) (2003): Me. Rev. Stat. Ann. tit. 25, § 2001-A(2)(F) (2008): Ohio Rev. Code § 109.69 (2004): 18 Pa.C.S. §§ 6106(b)(15) and 6109(k) (2006): S.C. Code § 23-31-215(N) (2008): Wash. Rev. Code § 9.41.073 (2004): W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a (2007, 2009): Wyo. Stat. § 6-8-104(a)(iii) (2001).

Two of the conditional recognition states, Montana and Texas, are de facto universal recognition states because both states recognize almost all other states’ licenses or permits. Montana recognizes the licenses of every state except Alabama, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. Montana Department of Justice, Concealed Weapons, http://doj.mt.gov/enforcement/criminaljustice/concealedweapons.asp (last visited December 18, 2009). Texas recognizes the licenses of every state except Maine, Minnesota, Ohio, Oregon, New Hampshire, and West Virginia. Texas Department of Public Safety, Concealed Handgun License Agreements with Other States, http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/reciprocity.htm (last visited December 18, 2009).

Although officially a “conditional reciprocity” state, Pennsylvania is a de facto automatic reciprocity state, as it establishes reciprocity with all willing states in practice. See Pennsylvania Attorney General, Firearm Reciprocity Agreements, http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184 (last visited December 18, 2009).

 

[TiP]

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I know that Oregon does NOT accept ANY other states' permits.

 

[urtica]

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Neither Idaho nor Washington require you to tell a LEO that you have a gun. In Idaho, depending on the dispatcher/jurisdiction, when they run your driver's license, them may check to see if you have a permit and inform the officer. They may do that in some areas of Washington; I don't know. I do know a dispatcher in Pullman (WA) who said they never check because whether the driver is licensed to carry or not just isn't an issue in a traffic stop. I have never offered the information that I am carrying nor has anyone ever asked me when I have been pulled over.

 

[okboomer]

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Try this link for information about must notify

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf

I realize that the site is not updated very frequently, but it is a place to start.

 

[Mike]

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okboomer wrote:

Try this link for information about must notify

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf

I realize that the site is not updated very frequently, but it is a place to start.

According to that website, only 4 states are "shall notify" states: LA, NC, SC, and AK but this is in the context of carrying without permit apparently - i am not sure this web site is tracking the particular issue we want, that is, "does an individual have a legal duty to notify a police officer who seizes them in an investigatory stop that they are carrying a gun?"

 

[Statesman]

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Mike,

I'm really disappointed in you. The official DORK mascot is Steve Urkel (Steven Quincy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Urkel

Who is this impostor you have in your article? This is blasphemy!

 

[since9]

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Mike wrote:

Dreamer wrote:

But when I travel in VA, PA, or other "don't have to notify" states, I would most likely notify anyway, because if they run my tags, they're gonna know

Huh? PA & VA have access to your NC's permit holder data base based upon license plates? no way. cite to authority of you have it.

I know for a fact that the I-470 toll way to Denver International Airport has no toll booths. It simply takes a picture of your plate, and regardless of which state you live, it sends you a bill within 30 days. From what I understand, other toll roads are going the same way, as it's a lot cheaper and there are no stops (works at speed).

The system is 100% automated, using computers, pattern recognition, and the US DMV database into which all 50 states upload their users' information and to which other states have right of access for various purposes.

Including sending you a bill for the toll fee.

When I applied for a CWP here in Colorado, recently, guess which piece of information they entered into the database? You guessed it - it was my drivers' license number, which tied in the database to my vehicle plates.

So, if someone's saying that LEOs can enter a person's CWP number into a database and have it pull up the individual's drivers' license and vehicle plates, believe them. They can.

 

[since9]

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urtica wrote:

I do know a dispatcher in Pullman (WA) who said they never check because whether the driver is licensed to carry or not just isn't an issue in a traffic stop. I have never offered the information that I am carrying nor has anyone ever asked me when I have been pulled over.

"...whether the driver is licensed to carry or not just isn't an issue in a traffic stop." I just love the wisdom of that! If I were a cop, I'd MUCH rather be dealing with a citizen who is honest, law-abiding, and trained enough to qualify for a CWP than an unknown who may or may not be carrying a weapon.

Of course in California, that knowledge may be cause for a full search of your car...

Ok, I exaggerate. It just seems that way from all the horror stories I've heard about California.

I've always informed the LEO during the stop that I had both a CWP and was currently carrying. All have asked to see the CWP, but only one asked for my weapon, unloaded. He returned it at the completion of the traffic stop.

 

[kwikrnu]

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In Tennessee there is no duty to notify if armed. There is no duty to voluntarily notify if you're in possession of a carry permit either. You only have to show your permit "upon demand" of a law enforcement officer (see TCA 39-17-1351(1)). If you are not armed and do not have the permit on your person how are you going to show your permit?

 

[celticredneck]

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I know that every one here(Virginians at least) say that we aren't required to notify here in Virginia because my permit comes up when an officer runs my license. But, the last time I was stopped, was a few years ago and before I had a CHP. I also hadn't had my driver's license renewed since I'd had LASIK on my eyes and no longer required corrective lenses. AS a result, I handed the officer my card, signed by my eye doctor, stating that I no longer needed corrective lenses along with my driver's license and registration. The first thing the officer asked, without looking at the card was if I was handing him my CHP. I wonder why he would ask this if he already knew I didn't have one?

 

[Tomahawk]

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celticredneck wrote:

I know that every one here(Virginians at least) say that we aren't required to notify here in Virginia because my permit comes up when an officer runs my license.

No, I say that because there is no law requiring you to notify in Virginia. I have no idea what the officer knows or doesn't know when he walks up to my window.

 

[okboomer]

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Mike wrote:

okboomer wrote:

Try this link for information about must notify

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf

I realize that the site is not updated very frequently, but it is a place to start.

According to that website, only 4 states are "shall notify" states: LA, NC, SC, and AK but this is in the context of carrying without permit apparently - i am not sure this web site is tracking the particular issue we want, that is, "does an individual have a legal duty to notify a police officer who seizes them in an investigatory stop that they are carrying a gun?"

Actually, I just went back to the link that I posted after verifying my state was on it, and now Oklahoma is not included in the page???

I will withdraw this link as it is now not only incorrect, but dangerously incorrect.

OKLAHOMA IS A MUST NOTIFY STATE - http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2007_2_.pdf

And in OK, it is any contact with LE that you must notify if you are carrying. Don't worry, they generally are familiar enough to not be freaked out if you notify.