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Felons that lawfully carry

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Those who argue in favor of stripping a citizen of their rights after they have served their term, keep forgetting one thing. It was an act of gun control that started this whole discussion. It has not always been the accepted norm to keep punishing a person for a crime after they have served their sentence, that came along in 1968. The Gun Control Act Of 1968 is when the government began stripping away these particular rights from citizens. Prior to 1968 there were a few local statues that did this, but nothing on the national level(think NYC's and Chicago's strict gun laws compared to those of the rest of the country, today), yet because of a series of national tragedies(most notably Bobby Kennedy's and Dr. Martin Luther King's assassinations) this law was passed to "make people safer". Even in '68 they knew not to let a crisis go to waste. Well, look at this way, when some gun grabber tells you how wrong you are for opposing "common sense" restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, you can smile and say "Nope, I support the Gun Control Act of 1968". Of course that does open the door to more restrictions, but hey just close your eyes and keep repeating to yourself how pro 2nd you are, it won't make it any truer but it will help with the sting to your conscience.

The "act of gun control" is designed to punish only those who abide by the law, not the criminal - and that is the difference. Such legislation would create a new class of criminals among those who dared not to comply with such unconstitutional fiats.

To those who argue recidivism, is recidivism a new phenomenon? Has it only existed in the last 60 years? Surely, it didn't exist at the time of the Founders, or they would have written in special provisions to strip the liberties away from someone found guilty of such heinous crimes. Oh wait, it did and they didn't. While we make like to think that we are faced with new and greater dilemmas and problems than those that have come before us , the simple fact is we aren't. They are the same ones present during the forming of this country(hell, throughout all of human history), relabeled with some new shiny variations, but morally and ethically they are the same. The Founders didn't see any need to curtail the liberties of the citizenry because of them and neither do I.

Recidivism of violent criminals wasn't much of a problem until the 20th century. Prior to that, crimes of violence were handled swiftly - either by someone slightly better at dispensing violence, or by the limbs of the "hanging tree". "Justice" was not always the domain of the courts, and "appeals" were a rarity. I'm not saying that it was right, but just that history tells us it was what it was. If one chooses to use a weapon to commit a crime against another human being, we have to assume that person is fully prepared to use that weapon.


As to "paying a debt" to society, that argument was used long before us and as a concept has helped to shape our legal system. One cannot simply remove it from the argument and act like it is now just a distraction. It is true that nothing can repay the losses to a victim of crime, but that has always been known. Still something had to be offered and it has long been accepted that an offender's time, life and freedom were what would be used. Of course, it was realized these things were a pale repayment, but since no true coin of repayment exists they must suffice. It is a system that has been used long before the founding of our great country and should not be lightly cast aside as a relic of an unenlightened time. If we do cast "paying your debt" to society aside, how long before someone else suggests we do the same with that contemporary idea of "all men are created equal"?

Although in a philosophical sense, all men are created "equal", that nonspecific equality stops at the moment of birth. Not all people are born into this world with physical, social or mental equality. There are those who are destined to be stillborn, those who are created with physical anomalies and/or mental insufficiencies, those who are born into wealth and those who enter a life of squalor and neglect. That "equality" is esoteric, and purely philosophical in nature. We are all born to be free to live our lives as we so choose... but there are those whose lives will forever be controlled by the whims of others. (Just my 2¢ worth, and I'm certain that someone will take exception to every word.) ;) Pax...
 

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
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S. Kitsap, Washington state
(Drug Offenders in US Prisons)
On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 197,050 sentenced prisoners under federal jurisdiction. Of these, 94,600 were serving time for drug offenses, 14,900 for violent offenses, 10,700 for property offenses, and 69,000 for "public order" offenses (of which 22,100 were sentenced for immigration offenses, 29,800 for weapons offenses, and 17.100 for "other"). - See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs#sthash.yu32GrRY.dpuf

Don't know how many of them are for possession, but really if you end the war on drugs many would be released. I'm sure it would save enough to keep violent offenders behind bars..and if it doesn't then give them the death penalty for repeat offenders, wouldn't bother me any.

last week I was in Seattle twice watching trials and sentencing for drug offenses in US District Court, not one single "drug offense" was some dude who happened to have joint in their car, people aren't even arrested for that around here. all 4 drug cases I (actually watched one and read the dockets and case files for a few others) were people who had crates of drugs in semi trailers or who were selling to school children. these are people who are not victims, who were doing something wrong and profiting off of causing harm to soceity, and were well aware of what they were doing. Federal court doesn't even care anymore about the guy with a weed card. I watch trials all the time in Kitsap and Pierce counties, I've never seen a trial or sentencing involving someone with a single dose of drugs who was a user come through Superior Court. they're all dealt with in District or Municipal Court (misdemeanor/city ordinance level) and they almost never serve hard time behind bars. the types of people going to prison (meaning convicted of a felony and sentenced to serve time in a state or federal prison) are not savory characters who made a few mistakes, they're into dealing drugs, normally to school children or in large amounts. nearly every drug possession case I've seen has come in through district court (by that I'm talking my county district court that deals with misdemeanors in the unincorporated county) and they're always sentenced to like 10 days in county lock up or asked to pay a fine...

If your state is giving people hard time for mere use or possession then you need to work on your state legislature to amend sentencing guidelines...
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
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Aug 7, 2012
Messages
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S. Kitsap, Washington state
Recidivism of violent criminals wasn't much of a problem until the 20th century. Prior to that, crimes of violence were handled swiftly - either by someone slightly better at dispensing violence, or by the limbs of the "hanging tree". "Justice" was not always the domain of the courts, and "appeals" were a rarity. I'm not saying that it was right, but just that history tells us it was what it was. If one chooses to use a weapon to commit a crime against another human being, we have to assume that person is fully prepared to use that weapon. ;) Pax...

That's a good point, I infer from reading history that the courts and law enforcement authorities in the 19th century (especially in the deep south and out west) had the philosophy of "let's just let him babble for a few minutes and we can get this fair trial crap out of the way in a tight 15 and get to hangin' by suppertime"
 
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ADobbs1989

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
Alabama
last week I was in Seattle twice watching trials and sentencing for drug offenses in US District Court, not one single "drug offense" was some dude who happened to have joint in their car, people aren't even arrested for that around here. all 4 drug cases I (actually watched one and read the dockets and case files for a few others) were people who had crates of drugs in semi trailers or who were selling to school children. these are people who are not victims, who were doing something wrong and profiting off of causing harm to soceity, and were well aware of what they were doing. Federal court doesn't even care anymore about the guy with a weed card. I watch trials all the time in Kitsap and Pierce counties, I've never seen a trial or sentencing involving someone with a single dose of drugs who was a user come through Superior Court. they're all dealt with in District or Municipal Court (misdemeanor/city ordinance level) and they almost never serve hard time behind bars. the types of people going to prison (meaning convicted of a felony and sentenced to serve time in a state or federal prison) are not savory characters who made a few mistakes, they're into dealing drugs, normally to school children or in large amounts. nearly every drug possession case I've seen has come in through district court (by that I'm talking my county district court that deals with misdemeanors in the unincorporated county) and they're always sentenced to like 10 days in county lock up or asked to pay a fine...

If your state is giving people hard time for mere use or possession then you need to work on your state legislature to amend sentencing guidelines...

Many of those cases are due to the war on drugs. It allows the criminal enterprises to boom. Drug use, manufacture, and sale increased after it was outlawed. Stop the prohibition, you stop much of the crime. We care more about locking up drug dealers than we do murderers and rapists (many are one in the same, but not all). It's nonsensical, it's the reason we have so many violent criminals using the jails and prisons as revolving doors. End the prohibition, get the drug users out of our prison system, and get more violent criminals in it. And if you want to save even more money have country wide death sentences for repeat offenders, and don't have them sitting on death row for 20 years, put their ass in a chair, or on a table and get it the **** over with.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
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North Carolina
I still fail to see the logic how locking up early release felons for just possessing firearms reduces prison population and saves money. Please I would like a answer on this? Seems really really stupid to me.
 

rushcreek2

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Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
909
Location
Colorado Springs. CO
I have some personal level experience and knowledge concerning the APPLICATION of Colorado law on this subject - having posted extensivley on this and other forums regarding the Colorado Constitution's provision for restoration of ALL RIGHTS of Citizenship, without exception, upon release from incarceration ( CO Constitution, Article VII, Section 10).

Despite the Colorado Constitution's provision for restoration of all rights upon completion of sentence, Colorado has enacted CRS 18-12-108 a statute that originally disabled the firearm right for 10 years following completion of sentence for persons convicted of a VIOLENT felony only. Then beginning in 1994 the statute was amended to include ANY felony conviction. Then in 2000 again amended to include domestic violence convictions, and upgrade the penalty for possession of a firearm to a felony.

Colorado appellate courts are currently enforcing this restoration of rights provision , much to the dismay of Colorado law enforcement, D.A.'s, and district courts. Unfortunately these citizens who have in fact had their firearm right restored are still unable to pass a FFl background check, or obtain a CO CHP without petitioning the courts to order C.B.I. to recognize the restoration of their right.

Currently under Colorado case law, the burden of proof rest with the State to present evidence that the previous offender's possession was NOT for the constitutional purpose of defense of home, person,or property (People v DeWitt for one example).

The 10th Circuit has vacated several federal convictions under 18 USC 921 since 1994 in cases prosecuted in Colorado due to the restoration of ALL rights provision under Colorado law.

There are literally 10's of thousands of Coloradoans who have nonviolent felony convictions dating back to the 1960's - and have had ALL of their rights of citizenship restored under Colorado law - including one member of the Colorado General Assembly with a 1976 larceny conviction who interestingly introduced the bill tabled on Friday that would have prohibited concealed permit carry on campuses.

In Texas any person with a felony conviction may possess a firearm while on the property of their residence after 5 years following completion of sentence. The current FEDERAL (Lautenberg) misdemeanor domestic violence conviction disablement provision would trump that Texas allowance.
 
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eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I'm advocating much more harsh prison sentences for violent criminals, without any of the parole nonsense after a couple of years. And the consequences for being a repeat offender needs to have harsh punishments. I for one don't like to see criminals with 18 pages worth of offenses and many if not most of them are violent crimes. I say if a violent criminal is sentences to 25 years, I better not see him/her again for 25 years. If they get out and commit another violent crime then lock em up for life or put em to death, I don't really care which one. And when I say violent crime I mean a violent felony. In all honesty I wish we could get to a place where more times than not a violent criminal is faced with an armed citizen and doesn't get a second chance.

Well, short of life in prison or indefinite terms (until the offender is deemed no longer violent), there is no way to stop the release of violent felons, no matter how long sentences are.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Many of those cases are due to the war on drugs. It allows the criminal enterprises to boom. Drug use, manufacture, and sale increased after it was outlawed. Stop the prohibition, you stop much of the crime. We care more about locking up drug dealers than we do murderers and rapists (many are one in the same, but not all). It's nonsensical, it's the reason we have so many violent criminals using the jails and prisons as revolving doors. End the prohibition, get the drug users out of our prison system, and get more violent criminals in it. And if you want to save even more money have country wide death sentences for repeat offenders, and don't have them sitting on death row for 20 years, put their ass in a chair, or on a table and get it the **** over with.

Yeah, if we ended the "prohibition" on murder then we'd see an end to the "crime" of murder. your point proves nothing. although maybe you believe that's the perfect way to fund education, just have your local neighborhood cartel sponsor the school while selling crack to the students

What do you mean "we care more about locking up drug dealers then murderers or rapists" who's we? what does "care" mean? more illogical fluff is what it sounds like. "The Revolving door" argument is silly, the people who using the system as a "revolving door" are usually lower level offenses for which they'll never be life imprisoned. and incase you didn't know this, there's a thing in the constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment" putting someone "in the chair" for carjacking or murder 2 or manslaughter will never fly when challenged.
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Forfeit is the word used by the taker, stripped would be the word used by the person taken from. As to due process, if due process could permanently strip someone of their rights all along, why didn't it prior to 1968? There is a longer history, in this country, of returning rights to those who have served their sentence, than denying them. Why is only in modern times we should add the additional punishment of curtailing a persons rights, for life, after they have served their time?

While you may view it as constitutional, there are many others who view it as cruel and unusual punishment.

No, forfeit is the correct word because it is the action by the criminal that ultimately causes the punishment. The word "stripped" is used to imply that the big, bad government is solely responsible, which is decidedly not true.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
Messages
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S. Kitsap, Washington state
I still fail to see the logic how locking up early release felons for just possessing firearms reduces prison population and saves money. Please I would like a answer on this? Seems really really stupid to me.

if recidivism for crime is 40%, that means over half the people who are let out won't be back, meaning the continued cost of incarcerating them will be less. if you have 10 people, all in prison, all will live 10 years past the point of their sentencing. let's say they cost 25,000 a year to keep there.

250,000 dollars a year times 10. meaning 2.5 million over ten years.

now if we keep them all five years, that's 1.25 million already.
cut 'em loose, 6 of them never come back. we'll say the other 4 spend two years on the outside and get sent back to prison. 4 of them are in prison for 3 years that's 300,000 for the remainder of their lives. meaning the total cost is 1.55 million. almost a million in savings.

of course this is overly simplistic, but should be good enough as model without the resources to conduct a scientific survey.
 

ADobbs1989

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Oct 16, 2012
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Alabama
Well, short of life in prison or indefinite terms (until the offender is deemed no longer violent), there is no way to stop the release of violent felons, no matter how long sentences are.

There is when you stop letting repeat offenders be released. They can serve their full term, be released, then if found guilty of another violent felony I say **** em. Throw em in there for life or dispose of them promptly.
 

EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
There is when you stop letting repeat offenders be released. They can serve their full term, be released, then if found guilty of another violent felony I say **** em. Throw em in there for life or dispose of them promptly.

you can't just "dispose of" people. you say it like it's your dead pet being disposed of. you can't do that with people. Louisiana tried making it a death penalty offense to rape a minor, not one person ever made it to the death row before the supreme court knocked it down.try focusing on living in reality and not your violent fantasies.
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
There is when you stop letting repeat offenders be released. They can serve their full term, be released, then if found guilty of another violent felony I say **** em. Throw em in there for life or dispose of them promptly.

Meanwhile, in between repeat offenses, they have the full RKBA.

Not wise.

Anyway, I have made my point fully, so I'll move on. This thread is getting long, and folks trying to make up their minds have mostly long since stopped reading. They are the ones I am trying to reach.
 

ADobbs1989

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Alabama
Yeah, if we ended the "prohibition" on murder then we'd see an end to the "crime" of murder. your point proves nothing. although maybe you believe that's the perfect way to fund education, just have your local neighborhood cartel sponsor the school while selling crack to the students

What do you mean "we care more about locking up drug dealers then murderers or rapists" who's we? what does "care" mean? more illogical fluff is what it sounds like. "The Revolving door" argument is silly, the people who using the system as a "revolving door" are usually lower level offenses for which they'll never be life imprisoned. and incase you didn't know this, there's a thing in the constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment" putting someone "in the chair" for carjacking or murder 2 or manslaughter will never fly when challenged.

Lol wut? You sound like some anti-gun nut making absurd claims. I don't think anyone has ever advocated selling any controlled substance to minors. Doesn't mean there should be a prohibition on the substance as a whole. There would still be regulations as there is with anything. Countries that have legalized different drugs saw an overall decrease in their use, cocaine used to be perfectly legal in America..did our country used to have insane amounts of drug issues? No, it has gotten worse since drugs were prohibited.

When I say "we" I mean Americans in general. Really you don't know what the word care means? I'm not using it in an unknown way, use a dictionary. Why would a death sentence be unusual punishment for someone who has been convicted more than once for a violent felony? As a citizen at least in my state, I'm allowed to use deadly force against someone doing any of those 3 acts. Which as I've said before I'm even more of a supporter of every LAC being armed and being able to kill a criminal committing a violent act the first time. Keeps them out of the prisons in the first place.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
if recidivism for crime is 40%, that means over half the people who are let out won't be back, meaning the continued cost of incarcerating them will be less. if you have 10 people, all in prison, all will live 10 years past the point of their sentencing. let's say they cost 25,000 a year to keep there.

250,000 dollars a year times 10. meaning 2.5 million over ten years.

now if we keep them all five years, that's 1.25 million already.
cut 'em loose, 6 of them never come back. we'll say the other 4 spend two years on the outside and get sent back to prison. 4 of them are in prison for 3 years that's 300,000 for the remainder of their lives. meaning the total cost is 1.55 million. almost a million in savings.

of course this is overly simplistic, but should be good enough as model without the resources to conduct a scientific survey.

HOW does locking a released felon up for possession of a firearm save money? Can you answer a straight question?
 

nonameisgood

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Big D
Under common law, a felon forfeited all his land and property, thus "paying his debt". Talk about incentives!

The colonies changed this after the split.
As far as weapons, again, the Constitution doesn't really guarantee the right to personal self-defense (SCOTUS rulings notwithstanding.). And The People probably can restrict others among them, who have proven to be untrustworthy, from keeping arms. But the founders also knew that most people needed personal arms for daily existence (food, safety), and would not have contemplated a time when cities the size we have now dominated the country, and wouldn't have expected large paramilitary police forces larger than the largest standing armies elsewhere.

The founders were also pragmatic, and the would have realized that making laws that couldn't be enforced is dumb. Criminals who desire guns will get guns. And it's not the fact that they are felons, it is the issue of trustworthiness and tendency to be erratic or violent.

Maybe the solution is to make restriction from firearm ownership a specific part of the punishment phase. Don't make it automatic (it's probably that way to allow easy re-arrest), but make it an option during sentencing.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Were is so that the police had some sort of responsibility to protect the individual, then I'd be fine with leaving felons defenseless from those who would assault or rob them.

HOWEVER, the police have no such responsibility, and therefore it is the responsibility of the individual to protect his own life. I can Not in good conscience deny anyone, even the most heinous offender the right and ability to defend his own life.
 

carolina guy

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Jun 21, 2012
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Concord, NC
Those who argue in favor of stripping a citizen of their rights after they have served their term, keep forgetting one thing. It was an act of gun control that started this whole discussion. It has not always been the accepted norm to keep punishing a person for a crime after they have served their sentence, that came along in 1968. The Gun Control Act Of 1968 is when the government began stripping away these particular rights from citizens. Prior to 1968 there were a few local statues that did this, but nothing on the national level(think NYC's and Chicago's strict gun laws compared to those of the rest of the country, today), yet because of a series of national tragedies(most notably Bobby Kennedy's and Dr. Martin Luther King's assassinations) this law was passed to "make people safer". Even in '68 they knew not to let a crisis go to waste. Well, look at this way, when some gun grabber tells you how wrong you are for opposing "common sense" restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, you can smile and say "Nope, I support the Gun Control Act of 1968". Of course that does open the door to more restrictions, but hey just close your eyes and keep repeating to yourself how pro 2nd you are, it won't make it any truer but it will help with the sting to your conscience.

To those who argue recidivism, is recidivism a new phenomenon? Has it only existed in the last 60 years? Surely, it didn't exist at the time of the Founders, or they would have written in special provisions to strip the liberties away from someone found guilty of such heinous crimes. Oh wait, it did and they didn't. While we make like to think that we are faced with new and greater dilemmas and problems than those that have come before us , the simple fact is we aren't. They are the same ones present during the forming of this country(hell, throughout all of human history), relabeled with some new shiny variations, but morally and ethically they are the same. The Founders didn't see any need to curtail the liberties of the citizenry because of them and neither do I.

As to "paying a debt" to society, that argument was used long before us and as a concept has helped to shape our legal system. One cannot simply remove it from the argument and act like it is now just a distraction. It is true that nothing can repay the losses to a victim of crime, but that has always been known. Still something had to be offered and it has long been accepted that an offender's time, life and freedom were what would be used. Of course, it was realized these things were a pale repayment, but since no true coin of repayment exists they must suffice. It is a system that has been used long before the founding of our great country and should not be lightly cast aside as a relic of an unenlightened time. If we do cast "paying your debt" to society aside, how long before someone else suggests we do the same with that contemporary idea of "all men are created equal"?


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