Fight for the right to carry while hunting...NO EXCEPTION!

[The Truth]

Confirmed/arranged The Truth and I are on for tomorrow morning's board meeting
Tagging along Grapeshot?

I'm very much looking forward to the opportunity to attempt to persuade the powers that be to reconsider the wording of the DGIF regulations regarding open carry during bow and muzzleloader season. As for the Virginia Code regarding such matters, that might be a tough fish to fry...but if we can gain the support of DGIF that would make the argument even stronger.

Anyone with more experience feel free to chime in with any ideas you may have, tips, etc. As of now, my goal is for the focal point of my argument to expose and present the logical fallacy that currently exists within the regulations.

 

[Marco]

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?117770-My-annual-no-carry-10-5-13-to-11-16-13-rant


In this thread there might be some useful info, namely hunting regs from another state.

 

[The Truth]

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?117770-My-annual-no-carry-10-5-13-to-11-16-13-rant


In this thread there might be some useful info, namely hunting regs from another state.

Thanks very much Marco. That thread should be very useful, and the wording of Oregon's regs could definitely strengthen the argument.

I am beginning to write an outline of sorts. I'm trying to decide the tone of my arguments. Throughout my life I've always been proficient at adapting my tone and arguments to the situation on the fly, which is likely what will happen tomorrow since I am going in blind. However, reading some of peter nap's opinions on the hierarchy of committees that decide such changes as I am advocating, I am beginning to think it might be prudent to be somewhat aggressive with my rhetoric. I'm just throwing around ideas right now though.

Something tells me I won't sleep much tonight...

In summation, I am writing an outline of talking points and deciding the overall tone of my arguments. Any advice is welcome!

 

[Grapeshot]

Hope no one is expecting anything definitive on Thursday. The regulatory process is slow and cumbersome, involving many steps.

At this point, we are months away from a decision, but it is imperative that our voice be heard each step of the way.

 

[The Truth]

Here are some basic ideas I have written down so far. I will base the entirety of my statements around these talking points.

I would like to address the issue of open carry during bow/muzzleloader season. The applicable VA Code is 18.2-308(B)(6) and related hunting regulations.

- In Virginia, it is already illegal to harvest game with weapons which are prohibited.

- Wardens should be allowed to address this issue on an individual basis, not infringe on Virginians' right to self defense (which is what the current regulations effectively allow to happen)

- 18.2-308(B)(6) contradicts Virginia's tradition of legal open carry for self-defense, and related hunting regulations are subservient to VA Code

- Self defense tools should not be restricted or forbidden

- I believe in STATE AGENCY PREEMPTION, meaning 18.2-308(B)(6) should be repealed and DGIF should have no authority to contradict State Law

- A concealed weapon used to illegally hunt game shows the same wound on the animal and produces the same report as a weapon open carried. Again, it is already illegal to hunt game with prohibited weapons. Mode of carry is absolutely irrelevant and presents a logical fallacy argument.

- Self defense weapons are necessary for protection from predators including bear, large cats, dogs, and other humans. Virginians have a right to self defense.

- Another of the logical fallacies presented is the fact that concealed carry is legal with a permit, but OC is a class 3 misdemeanor

---

These are the basic ideas I have down so far. I plan on elaborating on each to fill up the 3 minute time slot. Please be brutally honest and try to pick apart these arguments. I don't want a pat on the back, I want you to challenge these ideas if you feel my arguments are weak. Also, I cannot take credit for all of these ideas. These are shared ideas for the cause of Open Carry and I will do what I can to help in the fight!

 

[ChristCrusader]

^^ Good perspective.
Patience and wearin' 'em down if necessary
If not this year, then next. If not this board, then another, or another administration.
Wouldn't know what they're response would be if never approached, though.
Truth is truth, rights are rights, and logic are all on our side.
I owe a lot to others so I can keep and bear as easily as I can here in VA, and they had to do a lot more at more expense than to just show up and seek a policy adjustment
We can do this, and might even do it better next time if need be

 

[2a4all]

Here are some basic ideas I have written down so far. I will base the entirety of my statements around these talking points.

I would like to address the issue of open carry during bow/muzzleloader season. The applicable VA Code is 18.2-308(B)(6) and related hunting regulations.

- In Virginia, it is already illegal to harvest game with weapons which are prohibited.

- Wardens should be allowed to address this issue on an individual basis, not infringe on Virginians' right to self defense (which is what the current regulations effectively allow to happen)

- 18.2-308(B)(6) contradicts Virginia's tradition of legal open carry for self-defense, and related hunting regulations are subservient to VA Code

- Self defense tools should not be restricted or forbidden

- I believe in STATE AGENCY PREEMPTION, meaning 18.2-308(B)(6) should be repealed and DGIF should have no authority to contradict State Law

- A concealed weapon used to illegally hunt game shows the same wound on the animal and produces the same report as a weapon open carried. Again, it is already illegal to hunt game with prohibited weapons. Mode of carry is absolutely irrelevant and presents a logical fallacy argument.

- Self defense weapons are necessary for protection from predators including bear, large cats, dogs, and other humans. Virginians have a right to self defense.

- Another of the logical fallacies presented is the fact that concealed carry is legal with a permit, but OC is a class 3 misdemeanor

---

These are the basic ideas I have down so far. I plan on elaborating on each to fill up the 3 minute time slot. Please be brutally honest and try to pick apart these arguments. I don't want a pat on the back, I want you to challenge these ideas if you feel my arguments are weak. Also, I cannot take credit for all of these ideas. These are shared ideas for the cause of Open Carry and I will do what I can to help in the fight!

I am not a hunter, but I support and applaud your efforts here. My impression of hunting laws is that they are overly complicated and abet violation. Simple is best.

If you think about it, the concept of Open Carry is essential to the art of hunting. It's typically done with long guns, which don't lend themselves to concealment. (In fact there is an exception to the CHP statutes that allows a hunter to conceal his firearms during inclement weather.) But (given current regulations and DGIF attitude) the mere possession of a firearm while out and about the countryside during hunting season implies that one is hunting. The absence of a hunting license or the wrong weapon (for the season) is taken to mean that one is a poacher; else why would anyone be there? The CHP rule is apparently being used to exempt an individual from this assumption, as opposed to the basis of our judicial system that one is innocent until proven guilty.

In my estimation, no hunting laws are violated unless and until one has illegally taken game. One's presence in a bank with a firearm doesn't imply that one is a bank robber.

 

[peter nap]

I have to be there early to set up so I'll be there around 8:00.

 

[Marco]

Those attending:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forumsadjacenthread.php?107249-New-OC-rules-begin-next-Saturday

Here's another thread that might be useful.
On aside note I discovered that my double barrel ML is a no-no.

I wish I could attend but there's no way to get my kids to school on time and make it there on time, it's a 1.5hr drive on a good day.

My 14yo daughter wants to bow hunt (crossbow) at our property near our house but since she can't be armed with a firearm to defend against 2/4 legged vermin, I'll be sitting within sight of her.

Last yr we had an increase in the number of rabid animals found.
This year we've had coyotes bold enough to attack the alpaca farm (less than 2 miles away) during daylight hours.
There were at least 2 sizable pot grows discovered nearby.
2 yrs ago Albemarle county had a rabid black bear attack farm workers.
The recent abductions of numerous young ladies from neighboring counties.
The continuous searches of the nearby lake for the missing young lady from Orange.
Lastly discovering Randy Allen Taylor owned the lot and trailer that was parked on the lot nearby which he had visited frequently prior to his arrest.

 

[The Truth]

I have to be there early to set up so I'll be there around 8:00.

Welp, looks like I'll be there earlier than I thought then!

 

[The Truth]

I just timed my arguments and I'm right at 3:13 with a somewhat relaxed tempo. Should work out great! I'll be posting a transcript from my arguments tomorrow after the meeting. They are hand written and I need a nap.

 

[Grapeshot]

I just timed my arguments and I'm right at 3:13 with a somewhat relaxed tempo. Should work out great! I'll be posting a transcript from my arguments tomorrow after the meeting. They are hand written and I need a nap.

One is not sufficient for you?

 

[ChristCrusader]

- 18.2-308(B)(6) contradicts Virginia's tradition of legal open carry for self-defense, and related hunting regulations are subservient to VA Code

- I believe in STATE AGENCY PREEMPTION, meaning 18.2-308(B)(6) should be repealed and DGIF should have no authority to contradict State Law

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail, juvenile detention facility, or state-governed entity, department, or agency
§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

Has state law carved out the exception for VDGIF, being a state governed entity, dept, or agency?

 

[Grapeshot]

Has state law carved out the exception for VDGIF, being a state governed entity, dept, or agency?

Yes - state agencies are not included in preemption. The are somewhat autonomous.

 

[The Truth]

Transcript

First and foremost, thanks to the chairman and the members of the board for your time.

I would like to address the issue of open carry during bow/muzzleloader season. The applicable VA code is 18.2-308(B)(6) and related hunting regulations.

In Virginia, it is already illegal to harvest game with prohibited weapons.

Wardens should be allowed to address this issue on an individual basis, not to infringe on law abiding Virginians' right to bear arms, or Virginians' right to self defense, which is what current regulation allows to happen. Self defense tools should not be restricted or forbidden as such.

It is for this reason that I believe in State Agency Preemption, meaning 18.2-308(B)(6) should be repealed and re-worded, and DGIF should have no authority to contradict or undermine VA state code, as it is subservient to the VA State Constitution.

Self defense weapons are necessary for protection from predators including bear, large cats, dogs, rabid animals, and criminal humans. Virginians have a right to self defense.

Within the aforementioned code and related hunting regulations lies a number of undeniable logical fallacies. Concealed carry with a valid CHP during bow/muzzleloader season is legal. Open carry on the other hand, which is legal throughout VA, becomes a class 3 misdemeanor during bow/muzzleloader season.

A concealed weapon used to illegally harvest game shows the same wound on the animal and produces the same report as that very same weapon open carried. Again, it is already illegal to harvest game with weapons which are prohibited. Mode of carry should be absolutely irrelevant here, and thus creates another fallacy argument.

What this tells me is that DGIF trusts those who conceal, and distrusts those who open carry.

Virginia could learn from such a state as Oregon, whose regulations simply state that no other firearm may be used during muzzle loader season - eliminating the need for the invocation of an antiquated, anti-open-carry law or regulation such as the case of Virginia.

In conclusion, it is my - and many other citizens' estimation - that no hunting laws are violated unless and until a person has illegally harvested game. It's perfectly legal for a person to open carry into a bank in the state of Virginia, so would it be fair to assume that one's presence in a bank with a firearm implies that one is a bank robber? I think not, and I feel that now is the time for the necessary changes to be made so that the fine citizens of the Commonwealth [of Virginia] may exercise their right to open carry while hunting - WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

Again, thank you for your time.

---

I finished up right at 3:02.

 

[peter nap]

Sorry I missed it guys.
I spent the day in the hospital after I left.

 

[Wolf_shadow]

Sorry I missed it guys.
I spent the day in the hospital after I left.

Hope nothing serious. Maybe you need to slow down a little and listen to She who must be obeyed!

 

[skidmark]

Sorry I missed it guys.
I spent the day in the hospital after I left.

But apparently you are back, or at least in good enough condition to post. Either way, glad to hear it.

stay safe.

 

[The Truth]

Sorry I missed it guys.
I spent the day in the hospital after I left.

Damn, I hope everything is alright with you and yours!

 

[Grapeshot]

Peter did you slip out the door and then drove yourself to the hospital? Not a good thing, my friend.

Please next time you feel a need like that, ask for assistance........PLEASE!