Firearms Sales Co LLC in Ivor, VA

[SwooshTat]

It is nothing unusual to find me in the store having coffee shooting the breeze ocing my 1911 in condition 1.

So, I pose this question to Mr. Harris.

If I pull up to your business, read your sign and disarm myself as the sign reads. I then enter to find yourself and your buddies armed, how am I supposed to react? Because I clearly don't know anyone in the shop. Friend or Foe? With the hypothetical comment about people casing the joint with cell phones, why would I not just assume that the "armed" individuals in the shop are Foe because they ignored the sign upon entering.

While it is your property and we must abide to your rules; I will honk my horn each time I pass to signify another possible lost sale.

 

[Gunfixr]

I haven't been on here in some time, as I'm busy with a few other forums already, and don't actually OC much. While I freely support it, I just get hassled way more than it's worth to me.
My name is Nate, and I am the gunsmith at Firearms Sales. I was standing there when Lincoln7 came in. For one, he was not "told to leave". He was advised that there is a no loaded guns policy at the store. He decided to leave. He was not the first to do so. Personally, I do not have a problem with carrying in the store, but I do see the potential problems. First, I have been handed quite a few guns that had been previously unloaded by their owners, many who own quite a few firearms and claim proficiency with them. They are then found to be loaded, even having been found with round chambered and safety off. Therefore, it is clear that you cannot believe what someone whom you do not know tells you, as I think most here will agree. There are people whom we do know who do carry in the store, either openly or concealed. I suppose that there are those whom we do not know who carry concealed into the store fully loaded, and we just don't know. That's fine with me, and Richard has said it is what it is. So long as it stays put, no big deal.
Many come into the store perhaps planning to leave a gun in a holster, only to see another holster they may want, or have a question about changing sights, etc. Suddenly the loaded gun is out and in hand, and the chances for an accident go way up. The policy also is what it is.
Apparently, most of those hear do not go to Hampton, where I live. Most of the gun shops there do not allow loaded guns in their stores either. Clearly, none here go to any gunshows, where not only are loaded guns not allowed, they are demanded to be tied.
I am sure I'll not change any minds here, but at the same time, I see much of the same close-mindedness that I am reading complaints about. While most of the time I actually work in a back room, I do spend some time out front. Most of the guns that get handled (handguns anyway), get pointed at me, despite how much these folks claim to know about gun safety. The last thing I want is for someone to pull their own, loaded, handgun out, since the first thing that will probably happen is it gets pointed at me.
As for cell phones, ATF advised against it, due to robbers using the cameras. Really, using the cell phone while trying to conduct business, or standing next to someone who is, is just plain rude. They are not forbidden to be brought inside, and certainly can be turned on. All we ask is that if it rings, and you decide to take the call, step outside for your conversation. We do not even say anything if it rings, and you ignore it, or pull it out and hit the ignore button. I don't even use my personal phone out front in the store.
Do what you will, the gun rule is for everyone's safety, and only that. We are certainly not so stupid as to think that an armed robber will not ignore the sign. All these AD reports that I see mentioned here in the various stores actually supports the rule, not campaigns aganst it. It's amazing no on has been hurt yet.

 

[skidmark]

Nate,

Thanks for stopping by to give your perspective.

I agree that you cannot trust someone you do not know, let alone someone you do know. I just wish you and your boss could see from our perspective how much this seems to be punishing everyone for the fouls committed by a few folks.

Put up a sign telling everyone to keep their handguns holstered until given permission to unholster. Set up a clearing station where folks can safely do administrative gun handling. Ban folks who tell you the handgun is unloaded after they were given a chance to clear it at the clearing barrel you set up in a safe place and yet somehow managed to hand over a loaded handgun.

I don't know you, but I'm not going to run you off just because you have a holstered handgun. I'm going to run you off if you screw up. That may mean I put bullet-resistant glass between myself and you, or walk around wearing a bullet-resistant vest all day, or make you pass all firearms over the counter using a pass-box like they have at the bank drive-through window. But I'm not going to run you and other potential customers away because of what someone else may do or has done.

You, and your boss, on the other hand, are going to treat me as if I have already screwed up. Except that you will not get the chance to do that because I will not patronize your store now that I know how you operate.

stay safe.

 

[peter nap]

Close Minded Huh.....

I'm not the idiot babbling about being handed a loaded gun when the rest of the world is talking about holstered guns.
How can someone so stupid be trusted to work on guns?

 

[nuc65]

So, I pose this question to Mr. Harris.

If I pull up to your business, read your sign and disarm myself as the sign reads. I then enter to find yourself and your buddies armed, how am I supposed to react? Because I clearly don't know anyone in the shop. Friend or Foe? With the hypothetical comment about people casing the joint with cell phones, why would I not just assume that the "armed" individuals in the shop are Foe because they ignored the sign upon entering.

While it is your property and we must abide to your rules; I will honk my horn each time I pass to signify another possible lost sale.

It would be more fun and more theatrical to stop at the store, walk up to said door, take out wallet, count a few $100s, sigh, return to wallet, pocket wallet, pat HOLSTERED retained firearm, sigh again and drive away.

 

[Gunfixr]

Close Minded Huh.....

I'm not the idiot babbling about being handed a loaded gun when the rest of the world is talking about holstered guns.
How can someone so stupid be trusted to work on guns?

First I'm a babbling idiot, and second I'm stupid.
Nice. I see now why I don't come here often.
You fail to see the point. It's not the holstered guns that are at issue, it's the unholstered ones. It is apparent that holstered guns come unholstered in gun shops just often enough to create a problem. I thought I covered that. I just went and looked, I did cover that. So you either skipped reading that part, or chose to ignore it. Several here have pointed out the numerous ADs in gunshops, proving the point. Also, it has been pointed out that signs on doors can easily be ignored. Lincoln7 didn't even notice the sign when he came in, perhaps I should take a pic of the door and post it, so we can all see what he missed.
With your demonstrated thought process, I won't be entertaining anymore of your responses.

Skidmark, I am honestly sorry if you feel slighted for the abuses of others. As I carry everywhere myself, I certainly understand your position. Unfortunately the two positions of this argument do have some seperate needs. There is the right to open carry versus the right to be safe. While I'm sure it is agreed here that none of us would pull their handgun from its holster in say, Walmart for any reason but self defense, in gun shops they sometimes get pulled for more mundane reasons. Everyone is subject to getting complacent, it's why so many have had an AD in the first place. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, there's no taking it back, we all know that. Unfortunately, in life we are all slighted for the abuses of a few in many instances. While that doesn't make it right, somewhere a choice must be made.
Richard has made his, and it is his to make. I really only came here to try to explain without specifically being on one side or the other. If it were my shop, I cannot honestly say at this moment which way I would go. More than likely, I wouldn't say anything about carrying, as mostly I don't say anything now, I let Richard handle it. I know he has said he's not going to put an unload barrel out front. We like the "small town gunshop" thing, and certainly won't be putting up bulletproof glass to hide behind.

 

[peter nap]

First I'm a babbling idiot, and second I'm stupid.
Nice. I see now why I don't come here often.

Answer:
I don't recall missing your presence!

You fail to see the point. It's not the holstered guns that are at issue, it's the unholstered ones.


Answer:
I didn't miss the point. The OP had a holstered Handgun, your sign says NO LOADED GUNS...Make a new sign that says no unholstered loaded guns or just belly up to The Brady Bunch!

It is apparent that holstered guns come unholstered in gun shops just often enough to create a problem. I thought I covered that. I just went and looked, I did cover that.
So you either skipped reading that part, or chose to ignore it. on't be putting up bulletproof glass to hide behind.


Answer:
You covered it and I ignored it because as I just said, holstered guns are the subject. Anything else is off the paper.

..

 

[Gunfixr]

LOL. No, it's you who missed the point. An unloaded holsterd gun is no issue, only the loaded ones. People walk in all the time with pistols on, and no magazine present in the grip. For all I know, there's still one in the chamber. I don't care.

I see that the fact that many stores in Hampton do not allow loaded guns, or the fact that no one is allowed loaded guns in gun shows is entirely avoided. I guess they should all "belly up to the Brady bunch" also.

Peter Nap, you are arguning this entirely on one facet of one issue. I am happy for you that you live in a world that is nothing but black and white. My world, and those of most I know, has a lot of gray in it.
I also see that your main point is to insult and try to demean. People like you help fuel the Brady bunch.

If this is representative of this forums membership, then I won't miss you either.

 

[peter nap]

LOL. No, it's you who missed the point. An unloaded holsterd gun is no issue, only the loaded ones. People walk in all the time with pistols on, and no magazine present in the grip. For all I know, there's still one in the chamber. I don't care.

Answer:
No, we are only talking about one issue. You keep trying to justify it with "What If" arguments.

I see that the fact that many stores in Hampton do not allow loaded guns, or the fact that no one is allowed loaded guns in gun shows is entirely avoided. I guess they should all "belly up to the Brady bunch" also.

Answer:
Pretty much!

Peter Nap, you are arguning this entirely on one facet of one issue.

Answer:
That's because that's the only issue on the table.


I am happy for you that you live in a world that is nothing but black and white. My world, and those of most I know, has a lot of gray in it.
I also see that your main point is to insult and try to demean. People like you help fuel the Brady bunch.

It's called Zero Tolerance, not Black & White. I don't care if you like it or not!

If this is representative of this forums membership, then I won't miss you either.

Answer:
I don't represent anyone but myself. I'm certain there are many here that agree with you but you've also lost customers.
What do you want the board to do, censor my posts because you don't like the fact that I'm talking about the original subject, not what others in Hampton do?

...

 

[peter nap]

I'm gonna add a little more Gunfixer...

The reason I'm standing fast on this is because you and the boss are NOT gun friendly.

Your main complaint is that you've had guns pointed at you while handing it to you or that customer swept you. Yeah, it happens and if you think I'm being unpleasant now, you should be around when that happens. I usually have to go to church the following Sunday just to break even.

Instead of jumping down the throat of irresponsible gun handlers, you choose to ban loaded guns. Like it or not, that's playing right into the anti's hands.

I don't think I've ever handed a gun to anyone without the cylinder open or the slide locked back or the bolt open and I don't recall anyone on this board I know, doing it either. For the most part no one even removes it from the holster without a lot of reason. One member drew his for the news recently and was immediately corrected.

You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I said earlier that I wholeheartedly support the right of private business to make any rules they want. That doesn't mean I like it and I don't.

As far as what other businesses in Hampton do, so what? Gunshops here don't and the vast majority of shops don't. Gunshows are another issue and much of that is based on insurance....the one argument you haven't made. Even so, I don't like the Gunshow rules and have expressed that feeling to the promoters.

 

[tcmech]

LOL. No, it's you who missed the point. An unloaded holsterd gun is no issue, only the loaded ones. People walk in all the time with pistols on, and no magazine present in the grip. For all I know, there's still one in the chamber. I don't care.

I see that the fact that many stores in Hampton do not allow loaded guns, or the fact that no one is allowed loaded guns in gun shows is entirely avoided. I guess they should all "belly up to the Brady bunch" also.

Peter Nap, you are arguning this entirely on one facet of one issue. I am happy for you that you live in a world that is nothing but black and white. My world, and those of most I know, has a lot of gray in it.
I also see that your main point is to insult and try to demean. People like you help fuel the Brady bunch.

If this is representative of this forums membership, then I won't miss you either.

It's been nice knowing you too, I'm pretty sure we won't miss you either, it is also nice to know where not to buy my guns, or take them to be repaired.

 

[Blk97F150]

There are people whom we do know who do carry in the store, either openly or concealed.

So... you are inconsistent in how you apply the rule regarding no loaded carry? If you 'know' them, its ok to carry... but if you don't... then they can't? How many times does a person have to visit the store before they are switched from the 'can't carry' list to the 'we know ya & you're ok' list? :uhoh:

(if you can't read between the lines.... your arguments would probably carry more weight if the shop was at least consistent across the board. Having a 'posted' sign on the door, that you admittedly allow 'some' to violate, but not others... does nothing to help people see your 'side' of the issue... People you 'know' could have an ND just as likely as people you don't. )

 

[Tess]

LOL. No, it's you who missed the point. An unloaded holsterd gun is no issue, only the loaded ones. People walk in all the time with pistols on, and no magazine present in the grip. For all I know, there's still one in the chamber. I don't care.

Loaded holstered guns are not unsafe. Holsters, in case you hadn't checked, cover triggers and trigger guards.

I see that the fact that many stores in Hampton do not allow loaded guns, or the fact that no one is allowed loaded guns in gun shows is entirely avoided. I guess they should all "belly up to the Brady bunch" also.

They don't get business, either, from those folks who make a point of not doing business with proprietors who punish all for the sake of the few.

Peter Nap, you are arguning this entirely on one facet of one issue. I am happy for you that you live in a world that is nothing but black and white. My world, and those of most I know, has a lot of gray in it.
I also see that your main point is to insult and try to demean. People like you help fuel the Brady bunch.

If this is representative of this forums membership, then I won't miss you either.

You've also said that your point is safety - as if those of us who choose to carry openly don't care about safety. It seems to me you're deliberately seeing only one side also. Posters here have clearly stated ways to word the policy more appropriately, and it doesn't appear that message is getting through.

 

[scouser]

Being relatively new (compared to many of the people here) to owning any firearms, I'm still in the 'actively adding to and building my collection because I need to' phase, rather than the 'because I want to' phase. I have traveled 10 miles to buy a gun, I've traveled 70 miles to buy one, however, I don't think I'm going to make a journey along 460 east in order to buy one anytime in my foreseeable future

 

[Gunfixr]

First, I want to point out a few things here, which seem to have been missed, even though I have pointed them out.
I only work there, I do not own the place. I do not make the rules. In fact, I am not even on a payroll, I work as a contractor.
Therefore, any points anyone here is trying to drive into my head to change anything about what the rules of this business are is a total waste of time, as I cannot change them. I only posted in here to try to clear up some things.
The first thing that happened was that I was called an idiot and then stupid. This seems to be fairly representative of many here. While this is an open forum, and everybody is free to speak their minds, if any here think that they could influence anything at the shop, or with me. they certainly aren't going to by the insult method.
"Zero tolerance". Therefore you have no toleration for anybody or anything that is not to your way of thinking. That speaks volumes.
Do the rules have inconsistencies? Apparently so, but again I do not make those decisions.
If no one here wants to go to this shop, that is fine with me. It's your choice.
I could say much more, but I've said more than enough already. You guys don't mind making enemies out of anybody you don't know, that's fine. Since the gun owners won't stick together, because of intolerance, we'll be dragged down.

Enjoy the ride.

 

[tcmech]

First, I want to point out a few things here, which seem to have been missed, even though I have pointed them out.
I only work there, I do not own the place. I do not make the rules. In fact, I am not even on a payroll, I work as a contractor.
Therefore, any points anyone here is trying to drive into my head to change anything about what the rules of this business are is a total waste of time, as I cannot change them. I only posted in here to try to clear up some things.
The first thing that happened was that I was called an idiot and then stupid. This seems to be fairly representative of many here. While this is an open forum, and everybody is free to speak their minds, if any here think that they could influence anything at the shop, or with me. they certainly aren't going to by the insult method.
"Zero tolerance". Therefore you have no toleration for anybody or anything that is not to your way of thinking. That speaks volumes.
Do the rules have inconsistencies? Apparently so, but again I do not make those decisions.
If no one here wants to go to this shop, that is fine with me. It's your choice.
I could say much more, but I've said more than enough already. You guys don't mind making enemies out of anybody you don't know, that's fine. Since the gun owners won't stick together, because of intolerance, we'll be dragged down.

Enjoy the ride.

don't invoke the novacop10 rule, you said goodbye, have a nice life, quit posting.

 

[skidmark]

I must have some built-in response gene. I just cannot stop myself from responding.

First, I want to point out a few things here, which seem to have been missed, even though I have pointed them out.
I only work there, I do not own the place. I do not make the rules. In fact, I am not even on a payroll, I work as a contractor.
Therefore, any points anyone here is trying to drive into my head to change anything about what the rules of this business are is a total waste of time, as I cannot change them. I only posted in here to try to clear up some things. There was no need to "clear up" anything. The policy was clearly articulated. Nothing seems to have been missed, except that you are missing the fact that we who have responsed do not like the rules no matter how much and how often you state or change the "reasons" that are offered to justify them.


The first thing that happened was that I was called an idiot and then stupid. This seems to be fairly representative of many here. While this is an open forum, and everybody is free to speak their minds, if any here think that they could influence anything at the shop, or with me. they certainly aren't going to by the insult method. This is a very poorly veiled attempt to paint us all as agreeing with, or supporting, or doing the same as a few (actually two, if I counted correctly) who have behaved inappropriately. You do not appreciate their behavior but you choose to engage in similar behavior. That is not a way to maintain a positive relationship here.


"Zero tolerance". Therefore you have no toleration for anybody or anything that is not to your way of thinking. That speaks volumes. You know this is patently untrue. Yes, there are many (me included) who do not like the policy or the "reasoning" behind it, or the fasct that the policy is in fact applied inconsistently applied. But we tolerate it and we tolerate the people who made it. All we have done is express our dislike and our intent not to patronize an establishment that enacts such a policy. Heck, if you wanted to enact a policy that all the employees there had to wear clown suits we would tolerate that even if we thought it was rediculous. One of the things we stress around here is the difference between the right of private property owners to behave in ways that do not respect or support the natural right to self defense and the interference of government to impose limitations on the free and unfettered exercise of those rights.


Do the rules have inconsistencies? Apparently so, but again I do not make those decisions. Then why are expending so much time and energy defending them? Just say "Them's the rules. Like it or leave it. I can't do anything about the rules."

If no one here wants to go to this shop, that is fine with me. It's your choice. And we have given you the reasons why we will not be patronizing the shop, in case there was any reason to wonder why business does not grow or even falls off.

I could say much more, but I've said more than enough already. You guys don't mind making enemies out of anybody you don't know, that's fine. Nobody but you has made an enemy out of someone they don't know. f you feel a poster has violated the rules for this place there is a little triangle thingy at the bottom left of the post you can click to report the offense.

Since the gun owners won't stick together, because of intolerance, we'll be dragged down. Intolerance of pettiness and rules that do nothing to resolve the problems that were identified will not drag anyone down. If anything, it will strengthen the bond and the resolve of the gun community by pointing out that it is not just government that comes up with "feel good" rules that do nothing but impose additional and unnecessary limitations on the whole group in an attempt to control the few who need to be controlled because they cannot or will not control themselves.

Enjoy the ride.

Thanks. Hope you do, as well. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

stay safe.

 

[Blk97F150]

Since the gun owners won't stick together, because of intolerance, we'll be dragged down.

Exactly!

Um, remind me again please... who is being intolerant of who? :banghead:

 

[Gunfixr]

Exactly!

Um, remind me again please... who is being intolerant of who? :banghead:

Well, I wasn't the one to make this rule.
More than likely, pretty much no one here knows me, yet I am too stupid to work on guns. I guess I need to tell the Saiga community that it wasn't actually me who designed those great parts, it was my dog.
Oh, wait, I don't have a dog.
I hadn't been here much mainly because I don't OC, which is because of the hassle I got. I prefer to remain more low profile. But, the members here seem much different than before.
It seems to be generally thought that I should GTFO.
Maybe Richard is being intoloerant, but so is everyone here.

I guess that makes it all ok.

 

[Tess]

It seems to be generally thought that I should GTFO.

All the more reason not to.

But you also need to recognize there are always at least two sides to a story or an issue. In addition, you may not make the decisions, but you're a lot closer than most of us to being able to influence those decisions. Therefore, presenting you with more than one viewpoint should be a good thing.

Don't drop yourself to the level of those who would use ad hominem attacks. Keep to facts, and to your viewpoints. That's what makes for civilized discourse.