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Fredericksburg City at it again with CHP requirements

CaptainCharles

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Fredericksburg City, Virginia, USA
IMO you are lucky that the did not tell you that the application was not complete and they could not process until you submitted a proper application with all of the information required. Think they could have restarted the clock when you filled out the missing info.

Spoke with her, and I have to enter the info on the current application and initial it. I will be sure to clarify if this restarts the 45 day clock or not.

Wording of the letter was very interesting

" In reviewing your Application for a Concealed Handgun Permit it has been noted that you failed to list your weight. This must be filled in in order to COMPLETE the Handgun Permit." ( Emphasis mine)
 

Blk97F150

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Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
IMO you are lucky that the did not tell you that the application was not complete and they could not process until you submitted a proper application with all of the information required. Think they could have restarted the clock when you filled out the missing info.

I've heard that Fairfax County is notorious for this... requesting ('requiring') a ton of additional things that state law does not authorize them to require... then consider the application 'incomplete' if you do not provide it.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/circuit/pdf/CCR-CWP-10.pdf

A guy I know through work is about to submit his application. I'm encouraging him to only submit what is required by state law.... but I'm not sure which way he'll end up going with it.
 

Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
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Jul 5, 2006
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Accomac, Virginia, USA
Unauthorized procedure in writing.

I've heard that Fairfax County is notorious for this... requesting ('requiring') a ton of additional things that state law does not authorize them to require... then consider the application 'incomplete' if you do not provide it.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/circuit/pdf/CCR-CWP-10.pdf

A guy I know through work is about to submit his application. I'm encouraging him to only submit what is required by state law.... but I'm not sure which way he'll end up going with it.

Since they have it in writing, what would happen if someone living in Fairfax County sent a copy to the Chief Justice's office and complained about the unauthorized requirements. :p
 

user

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Northern Piedmont
The information that can be requested is on the official form produced by the Virginia State Police. The statute says that they have the power to make up the form, so no one else can mess with the information required, other than to require fingerprints pursuant to a valid local ordinance. I tell people to fill out the form and politely ignore any requests for information beyond that. The clerks' offices are still required to produce the CHP within 45 days, even if they didn't get what they wanted.

Secondly, recognize that when you file your application, it's not just an application for a permit - it's a court case, with a case number and a filing date. Make two duplicate originals of the completed application, properly signed and such, and take both to the clerk's office in person along with the required payment. Tell the deputy assistant clerk in charge of sitting by the window that you want the second original file-stamped for your records. You have an absolute right to have that, so insist and escalate as necessary. That second, file-stamped original is your proof that you filed it on a particular day, along with the cash receipt!

Finally, you have an absolute right to file the application the way you want it filed. There is a statute that says that the clerks do not have discretion about whether to accept such things (there are exceptions for some documents that have to be notarized and such, but that mostly has to do with land records). The law says that if there's a problem with what you've filed, that problem has to be resolved by a judge, not the clerk. Feel free to tell 'em so.

Oh, and one other thing - the clock starts ticking on the day you actually show up to file the permit along with the filing fee. That's "day zero", however, not "day one". Since they don't have the right to refuse to accept it, all you have to do is drop it off with the filing fee, and that starts the clock. If you have some reason to think they'll ignore it, and not treat it as properly filed, you may want to bring a witness along with you just in case. Make sure your witness knows the contents of the application so he can truthfully testify that he recognizes the duplicate original as a true and correct copy of what you filed.
 
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Grapeshot

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No, no NO! Did say "NO"? :mad:

No two copies of this and three copies of that. No stamped, self addressed envelope.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

Virginia's preemption law needs some teeth in it, then we can take a bite out of crime....where it hurts.

Really bad part about this is they've been told before!!! Yet the revision date on the link above is Sept. 2011.
 

Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
1,215
Location
Accomac, Virginia, USA
No, no NO! Did say "NO"? :mad:

No two copies of this and three copies of that. No stamped, self addressed envelope.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

Virginia's preemption law needs some teeth in it, then we can take a bite out of crime....where it hurts.

Really bad part about this is they've been told before!!! Yet the revision date on the link above is Sept. 2011.

That's why I wondering what would happen if a local filed a complaint with the Chief Justice with their document showing the unauthorized requirements. Sorta let their big boss handle it!:dude:
 

TFred

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Messages
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
No, no NO! Did say "NO"? :mad:

No two copies of this and three copies of that. No stamped, self addressed envelope.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

Virginia's preemption law needs some teeth in it, then we can take a bite out of crime....where it hurts.

Really bad part about this is they've been told before!!! Yet the revision date on the link above is Sept. 2011.
Interesting, I never thought of 15.2-915 in the context of CHP applications, but it does include "carry", so I think you are right, it should cover these extralegal requirements for the CHP! Good catch!

TFred
 

fburgdave

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
1
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
Code is pretty clear, give his re-newal!

18.2-308 -I. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in subsection D, and upon receipt by the circuit court of criminal history record information as provided in subsection D, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in subsection E. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to subsection D shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this subsection, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to subsection K is incorrect.

Pretty clear, and since the Code uses "Shall", that's language that means, you will do so, no if's ands or but's!
 

ProShooter

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,663
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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
No, no NO! Did say "NO"? :mad:

No two copies of this and three copies of that. No stamped, self addressed envelope.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

Virginia's preemption law needs some teeth in it, then we can take a bite out of crime....where it hurts.

Really bad part about this is they've been told before!!! Yet the revision date on the link above is Sept. 2011.

In addition to all the extra-legal stuff they ask for, I take exception to the "indicate your addresses for the past 5 years".

Doesn't matter where I lived 2, 3, or 5 years ago. All that matters is that someone is a resident of Fairfax on the day they apply.
 

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
In addition to all the extra-legal stuff they ask for, I take exception to the "indicate your addresses for the past 5 years".

Doesn't matter where I lived 2, 3, or 5 years ago. All that matters is that someone is a resident of Fairfax on the day they apply.
Just out of curiosity, I ended up looking over the current CHP application on the State Police website. It does ask for your previous addresses back 5 years. Obviously, this is not required by the law.

Maybe someone needs to take a very close look at the application for other anomalies, and apply some pressure to bring it into compliance with 18.2-308?

TFred
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
Just out of curiosity, I ended up looking over the current CHP application on the State Police website. It does ask for your previous addresses back 5 years. Obviously, this is not required by the law.

Maybe someone needs to take a very close look at the application for other anomalies, and apply some pressure to bring it into compliance with 18.2-308?

TFred

I think that you could argue that the information is "information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit", because of 18.2-308(E)(7), which states:
E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.
There are similar prohibitions for actions within the previous 5 years in 18.2-308(E) sections 2-4, and 18. Additional sections (9 and 14) apply for the three years prior to application.

It could easily be argued that a listing of previous addresses helps check for previous judgments, convictions, or other actions that would make you prohibited under one of those sections. At the very least, it's a gray area. It's not cut-and-dried that it is prohibited under 18.2-308.
 

CaptainCharles

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Fredericksburg City, Virginia, USA
Recieved my Approved Permit in the mail today.....

So, should I press the teachable moment, or wait for the election to accomplish that?

TFred, did either of the candidates mention if they would be appointing new Deputy Clerks, or retaining the current ones?
 

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Recieved my Approved Permit in the mail today.....

So, should I press the teachable moment, or wait for the election to accomplish that?

TFred, did either of the candidates mention if they would be appointing new Deputy Clerks, or retaining the current ones?
Interesting call to make. The incumbent clerk is obviously of no concern, since she is out the door soon. The question is whether or not the deputy clerks are now aware that the permit was issued, proving that their interpretation (or more factually, their current boss's interpretation) of the law was wrong.

I'm not one to rub it into people's faces, but if the only way to ensure they are aware of their error is to tell them, I don't see that being a bad thing.

I have not been provided with any information regarding the status of the current deputy clerks after the election. Both candidates seem to be emphasizing a strong training program to implement their vision for the office.

Congratulations on your permit!

TFred
 

CaptainCharles

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Fredericksburg City, Virginia, USA
The question is whether or not the deputy clerks are now aware that the permit was issued, proving that their interpretation (or more factually, their current boss's interpretation) of the law was wrong.

I'm not one to rub it into people's faces, but if the only way to ensure they are aware of their error is to tell them, I don't see that being a bad thing.


TFred

The deputies know. The permit is actually signed by the senior deputy clerk, as well as the form letter they sent with it. So, they know. I am not going to take any further action at this point.

Thanks all.
 

lagmonkey

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
27
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
Fantastic thread! I don't need to renew my permit until 2014 but having never dealt with Fredericksburg before (my permit was originally issued in Prince William County and renewed in Spotsylvania County) I was curious to see how this turned out for the OP. Happy to see that all is well.
 
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