• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Fred's out.

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
Ford Truck wrote:
Looks like I don't have anyone to vote for this time. :(
You and millions of other constitutional conservatives.

I share your ":(" and will add an :X
Is Ron Paul invisible? You all avoid him like he has herpes or something.
I agree with Ron Paul on many domestic issues, but I find his foreign policy insane. It is not a matter of agreeing with his concept, but rather his interpretations. I also find his conspiratorial ideas to be ludicrous. Many of his ideas could be implemented eventually, but to immediately implement certain changes, without giving the market time to build infrastructure that has been ignored, destroyed or prohibited at this point would be irresponsible at best, suicidal at worst. If he advocated his ideas as an eventuality after certain groundwork is laid, ie he had a plan rather than just idealized actions, he would be much more palatable. We did not suddenly arrive at the point we find ourselves, but rather it was a progression. We cannot just throw out the current system without destroying much of what exists. It must be dismanteled over time, piece by piece with time given between steps to let the economy, international realities, industry and the citizens adjust to the changes. It has taken 90 years of "progression" to get this screwed up. It will take at least a generation to fully fix it. So while I generally agree with much of his vision, I see him more as a dreamer than an executive with an implementatoin plan.
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
Ford Truck wrote:
Looks like I don't have anyone to vote for this time. :(
You and millions of other constitutional conservatives.

I share your ":(" and will add an :X
Is Ron Paul invisible? You all avoid him like he has herpes or something.
I agree with Ron Paul on many domestic issues, but I find his foreign policy insane. It is not a matter of agreeing with his concept, but rather his interpretations. I also find his conspiratorial ideas to be ludicrous. Many of his ideas could be implemented eventually, but to immediately implement certain changes, without giving the market time to build infrastructure that has been ignored, destroyed or prohibited at this point would be irresponsible at best, suicidal at worst. If he advocated his ideas as an eventuality after certain groundwork is laid, ie he had a plan rather than just idealized actions, he would be much more palatable. We did not suddenly arrive at the point we find ourselves, but rather it was a progression. We cannot just throw out the current system without destroying much of what exists. It must be dismanteled over time, piece by piece with time given between steps to let the economy, international realities, industry and the citizens adjust to the changes. It has taken 90 years of "progression" to get this screwed up. It will take at least a generation to fully fix it. So while I generally agree with much of his vision, I see him more as a dreamer than an executive with an implementatoin plan.
I understand. As far as I am concerned, Ron Paul is the closest thing we can get to a constitutionalist revolution, without having to actually shoot anyone. I understand thathis ideas arerevolutionary. That's why I'm voting for him.
 

sjhipple

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
1,491
Location
Concord, New Hampshire, USA
imported post

deepdiver wrote:
I agree with Ron Paul on many domestic issues, but I find his foreign policy insane.
How so?
I also find his conspiratorial ideas to be ludicrous.
What ideas exactly?
Many of his ideas could be implemented eventually, but to immediately implement certain changes, without giving the market time to build infrastructure that has been ignored, destroyed or prohibited at this point would be irresponsible at best, suicidal at worst.
When do you propose we start implementing Constitutional government then? We have to start sometime.
If he advocated his ideas as an eventuality after certain groundwork is laid, ie he had a plan rather than just idealized actions, he would be much more palatable.
His economic plan is laid out on his website. It's not just idealism.
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
Ford Truck wrote:
Looks like I don't have anyone to vote for this time. :(
You and millions of other constitutional conservatives.

I share your ":(" and will add an :X
Is Ron Paul invisible? You all avoid him like he has herpes or something.
I agree with Ron Paul on many domestic issues, but I find his foreign policy insane. It is not a matter of agreeing with his concept, but rather his interpretations. I also find his conspiratorial ideas to be ludicrous. Many of his ideas could be implemented eventually, but to immediately implement certain changes, without giving the market time to build infrastructure that has been ignored, destroyed or prohibited at this point would be irresponsible at best, suicidal at worst. If he advocated his ideas as an eventuality after certain groundwork is laid, ie he had a plan rather than just idealized actions, he would be much more palatable. We did not suddenly arrive at the point we find ourselves, but rather it was a progression. We cannot just throw out the current system without destroying much of what exists. It must be dismanteled over time, piece by piece with time given between steps to let the economy, international realities, industry and the citizens adjust to the changes. It has taken 90 years of "progression" to get this screwed up. It will take at least a generation to fully fix it. So while I generally agree with much of his vision, I see him more as a dreamer than an executive with an implementatoin plan.
I understand. As far as I am concerned, Ron Paul is the closest thing we can get to a constitutionalist revolution, without having to actually shoot anyone. I understand thathis ideas arerevolutionary. That's why I'm voting for him.
I think that most of his ideas are not revolutionary but rather the founding ideals. The revolutionary part, if there is one, is his implementation of those ideals. Revolution is messy and usually bloody. I think there are ways to implement the ideals without either.
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

deepdiver wrote:
I think that most of his ideas are not revolutionary but rather the founding ideals. The revolutionary part, if there is one, is his implementation of those ideals. Revolution is messy and usually bloody. I think there are ways to implement the ideals without either.
Like.... voting for Ron Paul?
 

sjhipple

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
1,491
Location
Concord, New Hampshire, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
I think that most of his ideas are not revolutionary but rather the founding ideals. The revolutionary part, if there is one, is his implementation of those ideals. Revolution is messy and usually bloody. I think there are ways to implement the ideals without either.
Like.... voting for Ron Paul?
+1
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

deepdiver wrote:
There are some things on which reasonable people can respectfully agree to disagree and I would consider this one of those things.
As do I. I completely understand your points, but I also understand that we have different ideals and priorities.
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
imported post

I do not think that we have terribly different ideals or priorities, but instead, a differing opinion on how best to achieve those ideals and effect those priorities. I think it will become irrelevant in that neither of us is going to get a final candidate we like or can easily and happily support.
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
imported post

From Drudge, Conservatives Vow to Become 'Suicide Voters'...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02062008/news/columnists/once_john_wins__hell_make_a_left_852521.htm

Better Hag Hillary and a clear sight of the enemy than a cozening RINO lame McCain chicken-shit hiding behind conservatives too scared of losing what little they have of freedom - just another word for nothing left to lose.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:
From Drudge, Conservatives Vow to Become 'Suicide Voters'...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02062008/news/columnists/once_john_wins__hell_make_a_left_852521.htm

Better Hag Hillary and a clear sight of the enemy than a cozening RINO lame McCain chicken-shit hiding behind conservatives too scared of losing what little they have of freedom - just another word for nothing left to lose.
Well, I said the same thing in 2004 but nobody was interested. I "wasted" my vote on Badnarik and prayed Horseface would beat Bush, but alas, we were still too scared of our own shadows to stop the PATRIOT act et al.
 

tarzan1888

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,435
Location
, , USA
imported post

Tomahawk wrote:
Well, I said the same thing in 2004 but nobody was interested............




There are a lot of us who are interested this time around.



Tarzan
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
Ford Truck wrote:
Looks like I don't have anyone to vote for this time. :(
You and millions of other constitutional conservatives.

I share your ":(" and will add an :X
Is Ron Paul invisible? You all avoid him like he has herpes or something.
I agree with Ron Paul on many domestic issues, but I find his foreign policy insane. It is not a matter of agreeing with his concept, but rather his interpretations. I also find his conspiratorial ideas to be ludicrous. Many of his ideas could be implemented eventually, but to immediately implement certain changes, without giving the market time to build infrastructure that has been ignored, destroyed or prohibited at this point would be irresponsible at best, suicidal at worst. If he advocated his ideas as an eventuality after certain groundwork is laid, ie he had a plan rather than just idealized actions, he would be much more palatable. We did not suddenly arrive at the point we find ourselves, but rather it was a progression. We cannot just throw out the current system without destroying much of what exists. It must be dismanteled over time, piece by piece with time given between steps to let the economy, international realities, industry and the citizens adjust to the changes. It has taken 90 years of "progression" to get this screwed up. It will take at least a generation to fully fix it. So while I generally agree with much of his vision, I see him more as a dreamer than an executive with an implementatoin plan.

I recall a Glenn Beck interview in which he explained this a bit. He plans to transition into a limited government. He's not stupid enough to think he could just sign a bill that instantly shrinks government. Unfortunately, his plans for the country tend to be too complex to sum up in soundbites, and as a result, the media and supporters of other candidates create soundbites for him. The "anarchist" and "isolationist" descriptions come to mind.


The problem, really, is that Americans (specifically Republicans) cannot reconcile their belief in freedom for themselves with allowing freedom for those with which they do not agree. Freedom is fine when it involves gun ownership and taxes; it's not fine when it involves activites considered immoral to "good" Christians, like homosexuality and drug use. Freedom for me, but not for you. So, then, problem lies within where to draw this squiggly line between fascism and freedom on each individual topic. We have the bar set very high on the freedom scale when it comes to personal choices like responsible gun ownership, in the middle for free speech (it only applies if the speech is "moral"), and lowest for sexual acts. The line changes based on who you ask when it comes to things like "security"... white Americans shouldn't be hassled (unless they look like a "drug dealer"), but Arabs (er, "terrorist types") should be hassled because their people are responsible for 9/11. The economic spectrum is screwier still. I'm not saying that the Democrats are any more consistant, but they don't really apply to the interests of this forum, because currently only Republicans have picked up the torch in supporting gun owners' rights. Yet, even that is not guarenteed; there is no logical basis for this position within the GOP's platform, and I can see RKBA as one of the first issues to be thrown overboard in order to progress other agendas. Look no further than 9/11 to see how readily the GOP will slaughter long-held ideals (such as small government) in order to promote a more popular agenda.

To bring it all back to the OP, it's a bit of a shame that Fred is out, as I could have lived with him as the Republican delegate for those who are too afraid of themselves to support a more strictly constitutional candidate like Ron Paul. It is ironic, though, that someone who echos the ideals of our Founding Fathers is decried as an anarchist...
 
Top