Fun question...OC/Motorcycle

[Neplusultra]

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wylde007 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

You mean you don't want to stand out in a croud like this?:

Forty-round magazine?:shock:

Not in VA.

Oh yes you can, it's just in certain areas that you can't without a CHP. Check the code.

 

[Reverend73]

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Neplusultra wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

You mean you don't want to stand out in a croud like this?:

Forty-round magazine?:shock:

Not in VA.

Oh yes you can, it's just in certain areas that you can't without a CHP. Check the code.

Uh, you might want to check the code. In a vehicle (of which a motorcycle is), you need to make sure that the locality doesn't forbid loaded transport of a long arm. CHP or not, loaded transport of a long armin a vehicle in Virginia Beach is not legal.

 

[Reverend73]

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HankT wrote:

Aren't you the guy who said he was going to OC an AR with PackininVB? No And the same guy who was going to OC a rifle with danbus in Norfolk?No, it was Virginia Beach, actually. As well as the guy who was going to OC a long gun at a tea party a week or so ago? No, never said that. I said I was considering it. Reading comprehension Hank, come on, get with the program.

How'd those (stunts) go for ya? Rhetorical question.

 

[skidmark]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

I just ordered a bright blue vented/perforated leather motorcycle jacket for this summer.

That being said, my tan OC holster will most certainly clash:what: ...anyone know of a place/person that could make me a nice Blue/Black/White holster for OC while riding in my entirely too flashy jacket?

I'm normally a "all black, all the time" kind of guy on the bike, but this jacket was insanely cheap, so I had to get it, in spite of the flashiness.

Any thoughts?

If you are in the Norfolk end of your range, try getting in touch with Backwoods Leather http://national.citysearch.com/profile/10620091/portsmouth_va/backwoods_leather.html

He makes good holsters, is quick and dependable, and seems to thrive on doing custom stuff.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[Sea_Chicken]

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My dad and I have plans in the works to mak scabbards for our shotgunsto fit on our bikes to ride to the skeet range. I'll post pics when we get them done in a couple months.

 

[ed]

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OC'ed all over NoVa today.. no issues.

 

[t11spanner]

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All those of us that OC on motorcycles need to get together for a run!

Carl

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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t11spanner wrote:

All those of us that OC on motorcycles need to get together for a run!

Carl

I'm in, but Ed's looks a lot more comfy than mine, so he's comin to me...

 

[diesel556]

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Slightly off-topic, but I ride with kevlar lined jeans in the summer to keep my ass fat where it belongs and off the road.

 

[Neplusultra]

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diesel556 wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but I ride with kevlar lined jeans in the summer to keep my ass fat where it belongs and off the road.

Don't let him fool you. Ed wears kevlar underwear. He just doesn't want to look like a sissy in front of his hog friends :^).

 

[sccrref]

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Reverend73 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

You mean you don't want to stand out in a croud like this?:

Forty-round magazine?:shock:

Not in VA.

Oh yes you can, it's just in certain areas that you can't without a CHP. Check the code.

Uh, you might want to check the code. In a vehicle (of which a motorcycle is), you need to make sure that the locality doesn't forbid loaded transport of a long arm. CHP or not, loaded transport of a long armin a vehicle in Virginia Beach is not legal.

What is the cite for VA BCH regulating the loaded transport of a long arm?The last part of the code was left out. Wouldn't preemption cover the carrying of a long gun? I am just curious.


§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

(1991, c. 570; 1992, c. 790; 2003, c. 976; 2004, c. 995; 2005, c. 160; 2007, c. 813.)

 

[Neplusultra]

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sccrref wrote:

Reverend73 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

You mean you don't want to stand out in a croud like this?:

Forty-round magazine?:shock:

Not in VA.

Oh yes you can, it's just in certain areas that you can't without a CHP. Check the code.

Uh, you might want to check the code. In a vehicle (of which a motorcycle is), you need to make sure that the locality doesn't forbid loaded transport of a long arm. CHP or not, loaded transport of a long armin a vehicle in Virginia Beach is not legal.

What is the cite for VA BCH regulating the loaded transport of a long arm?The last part of the code was left out. Wouldn't preemption cover the carrying of a long gun? I am just curious.


§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

(1991, c. 570; 1992, c. 790; 2003, c. 976; 2004, c. 995; 2005, c. 160; 2007, c. 813.)

That's kinda what I was thinking, but I'm not sure now. Walking you are carrying. In a vehicle the gun is not on you, ie, you are not carrying. But on a motorcycle you are carrying as it's slung around your shoulder..... Where is the preemption statute and the one that allows localities to regulate guns in vehicles, which is about illegal hunting if I understand it correctly.

 

[virginiatuck]

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I'd be up, or down, for an OC ride. Safety in numbers... The cages tend to see a pack of bikes more often than they see a lone rider. A lot of them have forgotten over the winter that there are motorcycles out there and need to be reminded to look over their shoulders and not just in their mirrors.

Neplusultra wrote:

That's kinda what I was thinking, but I'm not sure now. Walking you are carrying. In a vehicle the gun is not on you, ie, you are not carrying. But on a motorcycle you are carrying as it's slung around your shoulder..... Where is the preemption statute and the one that allows localities to regulate guns in vehicles, which is about illegal hunting if I understand it correctly.

Here's preemption:
§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.


A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.



Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.



The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.



B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.




Here's the statutorily expressed authorization of localities to regulate transportation of loaded rifles and shotguns:
§ 15.2-915.2. Regulation of transportation of a loaded rifle or shotgun.


The governing body of any county or city may by ordinance make it unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road, or highway within such locality. Any violation of such ordinance shall be punishable by a fine of not more than $100. Conservation police officers, sheriffs and all other law-enforcement officers shall enforce the provisions of this section. No ordinance adopted pursuant to this section shall be enforceable unless the governing body adopting such ordinance so notifies the Director of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries by registered mail prior to May 1 of the year in which such ordinance is to take effect.



The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law-enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

And here's the statutorily expressed authorization of localities to regulate the carrying of loaded firearms on public highways for the purpose of hunting:
§ 15.2-1209.1. Counties may regulate carrying of loaded firearms on public highways.


The governing body of any county is hereby empowered to adopt ordinances making it unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession, for the purpose of hunting, while on any part of a public highway within such county a loaded firearm when such person is not authorized to hunt on the private property on both sides of the highway along which he is standing or walking; and to provide a penalty for violation of such ordinance not to exceed a fine of $100. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons carrying loaded firearms in moving vehicles or for purposes other than hunting, or to persons acting at the time in defense of persons or property.



As you can see, in 15.2-915.2, it uses the term "possess or carry." A locality may enact an ordinance stating one, the other, or both. So you'd have to refer to a specific locality's ordinance for whether they regulate only possession, carry, or both.

While it may not have been brought up in this thread yet, I have read in other threads involving similar laws and motor vehicles the argument that laws applying to people in motor vehicles may not apply to people on motor vehicles, such as a motorcycle. I'll preemptively add my thoughts on that here.

I think it would be grammatically correct, albeit unusual, to state that a person is in a motorcycle. Merriam-Webster defines the preposition 'in' as "used as a function word to indicate inclusion, location, or position within limits."

A person seated on a motorcycle is within the limits, or boundaries, of the motorcycle even though there is not a roof over their head nor doors to their sides. From the viewpoint of the front of a motorcycle, a person is mostly covered by the motorcycle: the wheel, fender, forks, headlight, handlebars, fairings, or windshield. Is a person in a Jeep Wrangler if the doors and top have been removed? Or are they on such a Jeep Wrangler? Or are they either on or in? Is someone not in the back of a truck just as much as they are on the back of a truck?

The semantics of on versus in is, at the very most, a weak defense for the charge of any violation of a law enacted by a locality as authorized by 15.2-915.2.


Finally, I have attached an example of Loudoun County's "Weapons and Explosives" laws; Chapter 684 to be specific. It is current as of 2006.

I seem to remember posting this Loudoun County law to another thread. Oh well...

 

[Mr. Y]

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A person seated on a motorcycle is within the limits, or boundaries, of the motorcycle even though there is not a roof over their head nor doors to their sides. From the viewpoint of the front of a motorcycle, a person is mostly covered by the motorcycle: the wheel, fender, forks, headlight, handlebars, fairings, or windshield. Is a person in a Jeep Wrangler if the doors and top have been removed? Or are they on such a Jeep Wrangler? Or are they either on or in? Is someone not in the back of a truck just as much as they are on the back of a truck?

1: Do you ride in or on a horse? 2: How about a bicycle, scooter or moped?

On 2nd thought, please don't answer question number 1 :uhoh:

Your point is valid to some extent, but in the case of a jeep for example, there are clear points of ingress/egress; doors. motorcycles, bicycles, and scooters all have seats that you are perched on or straddle. There is no enclosure to be in(side of).

again, in your back of the truck example, there is a clear point of ingress/egress - a tailgate with a step on the bumper sometimes to provide access.

I wonder if there's any case law. It would surely be an interesting read.

 

[Reverend73]

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sccrref wrote:

What is the cite for VA BCH regulating the loaded transport of a long arm?The last part of the code was left out. Wouldn't preemption cover the carrying of a long gun? I am just curious.


§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

(1991, c. 570; 1992, c. 790; 2003, c. 976; 2004, c. 995; 2005, c. 160; 2007, c. 813.)

As cited in virginia tuck's post above, localities can regulate transportation in a vehicle of loaded long arms.


My cite of the VBordinanceis in myopening post inthis thread on Long arm OC on a motorcyle: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=19600&forum_id=54&highlight=long+gun+oc+on+motorcycle

Here is the actual cite


Virginia Beach Ordinance

Sec. 38-8. Transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun.


(a)No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway.

(b)The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(c)Violation of this section shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(Ord. No. 2050, 4-23-91)

 

[danbus]

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Virginia Beach Ordinance

Sec. 38-8. Transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun.


(a)No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway.

(b)The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(c)Violation of this section shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(Ord. No. 2050, 4-23-91)


What is defined as "loaded"? One in the chamber? Loaded mag, but none in the chamber? No mag?

 

[Neplusultra]

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danbus wrote:

Virginia Beach Ordinance

Sec. 38-8. Transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun.


(a)No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway.

(b)The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(c)Violation of this section shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(Ord. No. 2050, 4-23-91)


What is defined as "loaded"? One in the chamber? Loaded mag, but none in the chamber? No mag?

That's another potential point. Do you remember the case of the trooper who was shot (fatally) by a shotgun with one in the chamber that was inside a wrecked car. It was overturned in an accident and when they righted it and it's wheels hit the ground the gun went off, shot trough the side of the vehicle and killed the officer who was standing nearby....

So the question is what is the public safety issue that this code is addressing??? Is it accidental discharge during or after an accident? It can't be that they are afraid he might gun someone down can it? He can do the same while on foot under preemption....

So a case could be made that loaded carry in a vehicle is permissible IF the gun is not chambered....

What say ye?

 

[virginiatuck]

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Neplusultra wrote:

danbus wrote:

Virginia Beach Ordinance

Sec. 38-8. Transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun.


(a)No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway.

(b)The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(c)Violation of this section shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(Ord. No. 2050, 4-23-91)


What is defined as "loaded"? One in the chamber? Loaded mag, but none in the chamber? No mag?

That's another potential point. Do you remember the case of the trooper who was shot (fatally) by a shotgun with one in the chamber that was inside a wrecked car. It was overturned in an accident and when they righted it and it's wheels hit the ground the gun went off, shot trough the side of the vehicle and killed the officer who was standing nearby....

So the question is what is the public safety issue that this code is addressing??? Is it accidental discharge during or after an accident? It can't be that they are afraid he might gun someone down can it? He can do the same while on foot under preemption....

So a case could be made that loaded carry in a vehicle is permissible IF the gun is not chambered....

What say ye?

I can't imagine what was actually going through the legislators' minds who drafted these laws. I agree that there is a huge safety issue with loaded guns in vehicles with regards to accidental discharges. That is true whether you're in or on a vehicle.

I've wondered what would happen to the gun in my holster, on my person, if I were in an accident... Would the paramedics know how to handle it if I was incapacitated? I suppose they would just cut my belt off and leave it in the holster, but probably only if someone told them that's what they're supposed to do.

I can also envision my gun coming out of its holster if I were to go down while on a motorcycle... sliding across the road on my hip. Who knows what would happen? Who could predict all the possible outcomes of where that gun would end up and what would happen to it after/during a motorcycle wreck?

You're right, neplusultra, a case can be made for only unloaded (aka unchambered) guns in vehicles for the sake of safety post-wreck.

Re: unloaded/unchambered: In my mind, at least today, a gun without a round in the chamber is unloaded. <period>

By the way, I liked that question about the horse, Mr. Y. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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virginiatuck wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

danbus wrote:

Virginia Beach Ordinance

Sec. 38-8. Transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun.


(a)No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway.

(b)The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(c)Violation of this section shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(Ord. No. 2050, 4-23-91)


What is defined as "loaded"? One in the chamber? Loaded mag, but none in the chamber? No mag?

That's another potential point. Do you remember the case of the trooper who was shot (fatally) by a shotgun with one in the chamber that was inside a wrecked car. It was overturned in an accident and when they righted it and it's wheels hit the ground the gun went off, shot trough the side of the vehicle and killed the officer who was standing nearby....

So the question is what is the public safety issue that this code is addressing??? Is it accidental discharge during or after an accident? It can't be that they are afraid he might gun someone down can it? He can do the same while on foot under preemption....

So a case could be made that loaded carry in a vehicle is permissible IF the gun is not chambered....

What say ye?

I can't imagine what was actually going through the legislators' minds who drafted these laws. I agree that there is a huge safety issue with loaded guns in vehicles with regards to accidental discharges. That is true whether you're in or on a vehicle.

I've wondered what would happen to the gun in my holster, on my person, if I were in an accident... Would the paramedics know how to handle it if I was incapacitated? I suppose they would just cut my belt off and leave it in the holster, but probably only if someone told them that's what they're supposed to do.

I can also envision my gun coming out of its holster if I were to go down while on a motorcycle... sliding across the road on my hip. Who knows what would happen? Who could predict all the possible outcomes of where that gun would end up and what would happen to it after/during a motorcycle wreck?

You're right, neplusultra, a case can be made for only unloaded (aka unchambered) guns in vehicles for the sake of safety post-wreck.

Re: unloaded/unchambered: In my mind, at least today, a gun without a round in the chamber is unloaded. <period>

By the way, I liked that question about the horse, Mr. Y. Thanks for the laugh.

Well I'll keep carrying with one in the pipe and take my chances. My gun isn't going off unless you pull the trigger, and at that point "accidental" can no longer accurately describe what happened.

When on the bike, I wear a holster with a thumb break that could admittedly, very easily come open if I were to go down at any reasonable speed. Again, the gun isn't going off unless the trigger is pulled...so sliding across the pavement is no more or less safe than riding around in my holster while I'm walking in the mall. In both instances something else other than "walking around" or "sliding around" is going to have to act on the gun before it can discharge.

My gun has a drop safety/firing pin block. My shotguns get jostled around loaded all the time with nothing between them and firing other than the trigger (and plain ole "block the trigger" safety on one of them). Same with my blackpowder. Neither have gone off unless I asked them to in over 15 years of hunting every season. I imagine my pistol is not only safer in design, but also much better protected (in a holster, on my body) than either of those weapons that I've been toting around in the woods with sticks poking me/them, slipping and falling in the mud while carrying them, etc. etc.

Just my my $.02

 

[virginiatuck]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Well I'll keep carrying with one in the pipe and take my chances. My gun isn't going off unless you pull the trigger, and at that point "accidental" can no longer accurately describe what happened.

When on the bike, I wear a holster with a thumb break that could admittedly, very easily come open if I were to go down at any reasonable speed. Again, the gun isn't going off unless the trigger is pulled...so sliding across the pavement is no more or less safe than riding around in my holster while I'm walking in the mall. In both instances something else other than "walking around" or "sliding around" is going to have to act on the gun before it can discharge.

My gun has a drop safety/firing pin block. My shotguns get jostled around loaded all the time with nothing between them and firing other than the trigger (and plain ole "block the trigger" safety on one of them). Same with my blackpowder. Neither have gone off unless I asked them to in over 15 years of hunting every season. I imagine my pistol is not only safer in design, but also much better protected (in a holster, on my body) than either of those weapons that I've been toting around in the woods with sticks poking me/them, slipping and falling in the mud while carrying them, etc. etc.

Just my my $.02

When I was young, I was taught always use safeties, but never trust a safety. I live by that philosophy not just because I was taught, but because it's wise. The safety is there just in case, but you should not rely on it.

A hard hit/fall could potentially crack the trigger guard, leaving it wide open for any edge to pull your trigger. A very long slide across a hard surface, especially with heavy weight on top of it, can also grind away at plastic. I could go on and on, but admittedly it's still hypothetical.

There are far stronger forces at work in a vehicular wreck than most people think. Your firearm was probably tested for drops, and maybe things being dropped on it. Do you think your firearm was actually tested in vehicular wrecks? Motorcycle wrecks? Even if it was, were the conditions in the test the same that you might encounter in the real world?

This sounds like a job for the Mythbusters.

For what it's worth, I carry a round chambered while driving with the firearm holstered. I may do so on the motorcycle this year, but perhaps only when I feel a reasonable apprehension.