Going to Tenn for vacation, questiosn.

[OngoingFreedom]

I do occasionally use the airlines but follow the same procedures as everyone else to transport my handgun.

The MNAA has arbitrarily posted on MOST entrances to the airport (all of the airport, not just the terminal) making carry illegal not only when you walk into the unsecured areas of the terminal but also all the drive-through gates for the private and corporate areas, well away from the terminal. I work and fly out of a private hangar and drive through a gate to access it. The gate is posted, so I may not legally carry past the sign. This is unique in TN.

However, if I arrive in an aircraft, packing, I've legally committed no crime as I have observed no such sign.

So two people are in the same area who may otherwise legally carry a handgun. The arriving crew or their passengers can carry yet the guy who drives through the gate to access the same area as the newly arrived aircraft is committing a felony?

Here's another example. Whenever I travel by airlines I like to go to the rental car lots armed, so after retrieving my luggage I go to the men's room to load and holster. Let's say I am a visitor to TN and have properly researched the laws. I know I may OC with a handgun permit (pick whatever letters you want: LTCF, HCP, CCW), and that TN code does not forbid carry in the non-sterile areas of an airport. So once I walk past the sign during next to the bored TSA agent that says "NO REENTRY" I know I am exiting the sterile area. I pick up my luggage and re-arm OC. The TSA won't care unless I try to re-enter the sterile area, but if an MNAA airport cop sees me then I bet a lot of unpleasantness is going to follow.

It simply is an awkward setup. I think MNAA should take down the signs.

ETA: Not all states allow carry in the non-sterile areas of a terminal but there are very few. Arkansas is one.

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[Fallguy]

I agree the airport should take down their signs.

I really was just thinking of passengers arriving on a airliner and just didn't think too many of them would be armed as they disembarked. But I see there could be other circumstances now.

 

[OngoingFreedom]

But I see there could be other circumstances now.

Certainly those other circumstances are rare, but probable.

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[SgtScott31]

It simply is an awkward setup. I think MNAA should take down the signs.

Likely not going to happen in my lifetime.

However, if I arrive in an aircraft, packing, I've legally committed no crime as I have observed no such sign.

So two people are in the same area who may otherwise legally carry a handgun. The arriving crew or their passengers can carry yet the guy who drives through the gate to access the same area as the newly arrived aircraft is committing a felony?

You can use the fact that you didn't observe the sign as a defense, but you still risk being arrested. It wouldn't help your cause that you know about the posted signs on the gates to Signature/Atlantic Aviation but chose to carry anyway. Even if you didn't admit to it, if the evidence shows you have gone through those gates (or flown out) before, it would make an easier case. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Is it that big of an issue that you can't wait to holster up until you walk 50 yards off the GA ramp? Just curious.

It's not a felony by the way. It could be a "federal" crime if the FBI decided to pursue it, but it's not a felony under state law. FBI doesn't step in to often, but you could be TSA would be throwing a civil penalty your way.

Believe me I'm not implying that our officers are looking to hem someone up who has a HCP and is walking from his plane to his vehicle, but if they're called by someone observing the weapon (especially one of the TSA folks), it wouldn't be unlikely that the in-charge officer would instruct his guys to arrest because the feds are standing over their shoulder.

Here's another example. Whenever I travel by airlines I like to go to the rental car lots armed, so after retrieving my luggage I go to the men's room to load and holster. Let's say I am a visitor to TN and have properly researched the laws. I know I may OC with a handgun permit (pick whatever letters you want: LTCF, HCP, CCW), and that TN code does not forbid carry in the non-sterile areas of an airport. So once I walk past the sign during next to the bored TSA agent that says "NO REENTRY" I know I am exiting the sterile area. I pick up my luggage and re-arm OC. The TSA won't care unless I try to re-enter the sterile area, but if an MNAA airport cop sees me then I bet a lot of unpleasantness is going to follow.

Same scenario as general aviation. Wait until you're at your vehicle in the parking lot and then arm-up. Again, why the urgent need to holster the second you walk off the plane? I know it's not because of the threat of a mugging/robbery at the airport. I've been here 10 years and it's never happened.

 

[WCrawford]

Same scenario as general aviation. Wait until you're at your vehicle in the parking lot and then arm-up. Again, why the urgent need to holster the second you walk off the plane? I know it's not because of the threat of a mugging/robbery at the airport. I've been here 10 years and it's never happened.

Why are you there if nothing has ever happened? Why are you armed if there is no need for a firearm?

 

[SgtScott31]

Why are you there if nothing has ever happened? Why are you armed if there is no need for a firearm?

So no robberies means that there's no need for law enforcement at an airport? Did you seriously just ask that question? We handle plenty of other calls whether police, fire or EMS related that warrants a full-time LE agency, besides the fact that it's also a federal requriement where there are commercial flights.

Why do you need to arm yourself in an airport? And let's try to use more than "because it's my right....."

 

[WCrawford]

So no robberies means that there's no need for law enforcement at an airport? Did you seriously just ask that question? We handle plenty of other calls whether police, fire or EMS related that warrants a full-time LE agency, besides the fact that it's also a federal requriement where there are commercial flights.

Why do you need to arm yourself in an airport? And let's try to use more than "because it's my right....."

How about to defend myself and family from those very same people you seem to need protection from (or the police themselves)? Is the safety of myself or family less valuable than your own? Besides, what is wrong with "because it's my right"? Is there any better reason than I have a God given right to do something that has enumerated protection from governmental infringement by the Constitution of the United States?

 

[OngoingFreedom]

You can use the fact that you didn't observe the sign as a defense, but you still risk being arrested.

First of all let me thank you for your observations and participation in this thread, and for addressing my concerns. I really appreciate that.

I apologize if you misunderstood the meaning of my post. I see the signs twice everyday (well, most days) and I faithfully disarm when I come through the gate.

It wouldn't help your cause that you know about the posted signs on the gates to Signature/Atlantic Aviation but chose to carry anyway.

I understand. What I'm concerned about is the crew or passenger who arrives at Atlantic or Signature from elsewhere. Did you know that most people who go to the FBO's don't drive through the gate? Yet that's the only way you'll see the gun buster signs. That's rather unfair to have researched gun laws when coming to this state (as I do when flying to others), carry responsibly, but then get hooked and booked.

My concern is not completely altruistic, however.

Is it that big of an issue that you can't wait to holster up until you walk 50 yards off the GA ramp? Just curious.

...

Same scenario as general aviation. Wait until you're at your vehicle in the parking lot and then arm-up. Again, why the urgent need to holster the second you walk off the plane? I know it's not because of the threat of a mugging/robbery at the airport. I've been here 10 years and it's never happened.

A testament, no doubt, to the fine service you and your partners provide.

I carry always, everywhere I go, whenever I legally can, (even at home) so I guess it's the principle of the thing. When I fly and I'm not at BNA (which is about half the time) I'm armed.

There's probably a little laziness thrown in there too ;-) , as it's easier to stay holstered than it is to disarm/rearm. Oh, and another thing. BNA might be pretty safe but a new visitor probably doesn't know one way or the other, just as I don't know other airports' crime statistics. They're probably mostly pretty safe, but I sometimes make long dark walks to rental cart lots (not like BNA) late at night. I also visit some remote airports that have no one around.

Do I always feel the need to be armed like you asked? No, but I like to be. I have purchased the privilege from the State and I do enjoy that privilege.

It's not a felony by the way. It could be a "federal" crime if the FBI decided to pursue it, but it's not a felony under state law. FBI doesn't step in to often, but you could be TSA would be throwing a civil penalty your way.

I didn't know that.

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[OngoingFreedom]

Believe me I'm not implying that our officers are looking to hem someone up who has a HCP and is walking from his plane to his vehicle, but if they're called by someone observing the weapon (especially one of the TSA folks), it wouldn't be unlikely that the in-charge officer would instruct his guys to arrest because the feds are standing over their shoulder.

Hmm. That's not the impression I got from the Signature manager. He said that in a meeting discussing some (then) recent security changes that Alan Jackson was observed outside loading an armful of shotguns into his airplane. When asked of the TSA "Well, what about THAT?" they were said to have said "That's not our concern", or some such.

Seriously, we load soft cased long guns all the time.

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[SgtScott31]

Hmm. That's not the impression I got from the Signature manager. He said that in a meeting discussing some (then) recent security changes that Alan Jackson was observed outside loading an armful of shotguns into his airplane. When asked of the TSA "Well, what about THAT?" they were said to have said "That's not our concern", or some such.

Seriously, we load soft cased long guns all the time.

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The transporting of firearms from point A to B is an exception to the unlawful carry statute in TN and to the federal regulations involving aircraft/mass transit. If TSA called me because Alan Jackson was loading long guns in his plane, I would tell them "thanks" for letting me know and continue doing other things.

 

[SgtScott31]

A testament, no doubt, to the fine service you and your partners provide.

I carry always, everywhere I go, whenever I legally can, (even at home) so I guess it's the principle of the thing. When I fly and I'm not at BNA (which is about half the time) I'm armed.

There's probably a little laziness thrown in there too ;-) , as it's easier to stay holstered than it is to disarm/rearm. Oh, and another thing. BNA might be pretty safe but a new visitor probably doesn't know one way or the other, just as I don't know other airports' crime statistics. They're probably mostly pretty safe, but I sometimes make long dark walks to rental cart lots (not like BNA) late at night. I also visit some remote airports that have no one around.

Thanks for the compliment.

I would think that most airports that provide services for private jets/aircraft would have them in an area that's not prone to criminal activity. I don't delve into stats at other airports or other GA areas, so I could be wrong. Maybe some airports have higher crime rates where it could possibly be warranted to carry. I know there are quite a few that allow for carry inside the terminal prior to screening. Since we don't have a "crime" problem so to speak when it comes to violent crimes here I would think that's the reasoning for the refusal to allow weapons (by permit holders) in the terminal. You can still be armed outside of the building, but it could lead to LEO interaction if right out front (normally only if we're called to it). If you're in the parking lots/garages, I doubt you'll even see us.

 

[SgtScott31]

How about to defend myself and family from those very same people you seem to need protection from (or the police themselves)? Is the safety of myself or family less valuable than your own? Besides, what is wrong with "because it's my right"? Is there any better reason than I have a God given right to do something that has enumerated protection from governmental infringement by the Constitution of the United States?

I don't rate anyone's lives less than others. I don't see the need for extra weapons in the terminal building. Officers are posted in front and behind security. If there is an event where lethal force is necessary you're likely to get shot just as quick as the suspect(s) if you decide to attempt to "defend" yourself.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with a "right." I asked for a better explanation since that seems to be the only answer for many of those who can't offer another reason why they're carrying. To go further, as far as your "right," that's one of the most debatable issues in this country involving the 2nd Amendment. Many courts, including the US Supreme Court, have interpreted the Constitution differently, arguing that the 2nd Amendment doesn't give unrestricted rights to firearm carry, hence why most states are allowed to regulate the wearing of arms (outside the home). I have no issues at all with the current policy in place regarding our facility. I can safely say that officers are always by the front doors, on patrol throughout the property, beyond security in the concourses, and patrolling on the ramp. This doesn't include other staff and/or K9. The only likely thing that will occur if you pull your weapon in the terminal building is getting shot by a police officer. The coverage could be different among other airports, but I've been here for 10 years and I know how well the terminal building is covered. If you don't think it is, feel free to step inside and see how quickly you see a police officer. I think it's a smart move by our administration and I haven't seen/heard any other reason why the policy should change. If you want to carry other places, I have no problem with it; heck I encourage it.

On a side note, are you suggesting that you need a weapon to protect yourself from the police? I would like to hear that argument.

 

[rscottie]

I don't rate anyone's lives less than others. I don't see the need for extra weapons in the terminal building. Officers are posted in front and behind security. If there is an event where lethal force is necessary you're likely to get shot just as quick as the suspect(s) if you decide to attempt to "defend" yourself.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with a "right." I asked for a better explanation since that seems to be the only answer for many of those who can't offer another reason why they're carrying. To go further, as far as your "right," that's one of the most debatable issues in this country involving the 2nd Amendment. Many courts, including the US Supreme Court, have interpreted the Constitution differently, arguing that the 2nd Amendment doesn't give unrestricted rights to firearm carry, hence why most states are allowed to regulate the wearing of arms (outside the home). I have no issues at all with the current policy in place regarding our facility. I can safely say that officers are always by the front doors, on patrol throughout the property, beyond security in the concourses, and patrolling on the ramp. This doesn't include other staff and/or K9. The only likely thing that will occur if you pull your weapon in the terminal building is getting shot by a police officer. The coverage could be different among other airports, but I've been here for 10 years and I know how well the terminal building is covered. If you don't think it is, feel free to step inside and see how quickly you see a police officer. I think it's a smart move by our administration and I haven't seen/heard any other reason why the policy should change. If you want to carry other places, I have no problem with it; heck I encourage it.

On a side note, are you suggesting that you need a weapon to protect yourself from the police? I would like to hear that argument.

So you say your officers will shoot anyone that pulls a firearm will be shot by a police officer? I guess that your police officers know every legally armed person entering the building? Do they know each and every FBI Agent? How about undercover officers?

It would seem that officers should be trained to determine more of what is going on in a situation than to shoot everyone that is not in uniform first and clear it up later.

 

[SgtScott31]

So you say your officers will shoot anyone that pulls a firearm will be shot by a police officer? I guess that your police officers know every legally armed person entering the building? Do they know each and every FBI Agent? How about undercover officers?

It would seem that officers should be trained to determine more of what is going on in a situation than to shoot everyone that is not in uniform first and clear it up later.

It reinforces the argument that there are plenty of LEOs in the building, hence why we don't need anyone else in there. Feds will do certain things when intervening in such events.

 

[rscottie]

It reinforces the argument that there are plenty of LEOs in the building, hence why we don't need anyone else in there. Feds will do certain things when intervening in such events.

Ok, so it comes down to an "only ones" argument? We have heard that before.

 

[rscottie]

It reinforces the argument that there are plenty of LEOs in the building, hence why we don't need anyone else in there. Feds will do certain things when intervening in such events.

You do not need anyone else in there? You mean anyone else non-Leo that may be lawfully carrying a weapon, openly or concealed? Is this because you believe that most law abiding citizens are carrying a firearm in the hopes that they will be able to get in to a shootout? That they are just hoping and waiting on the opportunity to pull their "shootin' iron" as the anti's like to say?

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I will speak for myself and would bet that most on here feel the same way. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. I do not carry to fulfill some wild west fantasy. I do not carry in hopes of thwarting a robbery in progress. In fact, unless me or my family are in jeopardy, my gun probably will stay holstered.

This does not mean that if I am sitting in Luby's when some nut job comes in shooting that I would not draw and attempt to take him out. It just means that my first priority is to me and mine. I would defend the store clerk that is looking down the barrel of a shotgun if I thought I could do so. Really, those scenarios are far too fluid to say how I would react. I hope that it would be with honor and hopefully without me or the clerk getting hurt. Actually, I hope to never find out.

But, for you to insinuate that I should not have the right to carry in the unsterile terminal merely because "your team" has it covered, that is plain wrong. Are you walking me to and from the parking lot? Are you with me at the gas station right before getting in to the airport? Are you going to be there when I get home and find someone has broken in to my home and I left my gun there so I could go to your airport?

I suppose I could just leave it in the car. But I have a problem with that. If I pull in to the parking lot and disarm, who is to say that some criminal did not see me un-holstering? Who is to say that they would not break in and steal it. Do not even say that thefts from auto's do not occur in your parking lot because if they do not, yours is the only airport in the country that has not experienced some stereos stolen. Also, have you read the parking lot rules? They always tell you they are not responsible for items left in cars. I really do not wish my firearm to fall in to a criminals hands because it was left in my car.

I am also sorry that you do not believe that the 2nd Amendment says what it says. Anyone reading the arguments put forth for the Bill of Rights understand easily that it was intended to recognize an individual right to defend oneself and to do so with arms. The Founding Father's understood full well that recognizing such a right and enumerating it in the Bill of Rights was the only way for Freedom to survive.

 

[SgtScott31]

Is this because you believe that most law abiding citizens are carrying a firearm in the hopes that they will be able to get in to a shootout?

Nope

I will speak for myself and would bet that most on here feel the same way. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. I do not carry to fulfill some wild west fantasy. I do not carry in hopes of thwarting a robbery in progress. In fact, unless me or my family are in jeopardy, my gun probably will stay holstered.

Good for you.

But, for you to insinuate that I should not have the right to carry in the unsterile terminal merely because "your team" has it covered, that is plain wrong. Are you walking me to and from the parking lot? Are you with me at the gas station right before getting in to the airport? Are you going to be there when I get home and find someone has broken in to my home and I left my gun there so I could go to your airport?

"Plain wrong" in YOUR OPINION. I have no problem with it. Obviously the airport authority doesn't either, because it's not allowed. I could care less what you do with your weapon in the parking lot, off property, or anywhere else. We're not talking about a gas station, your home, or anywhere else are we? Stay on point.

I suppose I could just leave it in the car. But I have a problem with that. If I pull in to the parking lot and disarm, who is to say that some criminal did not see me un-holstering? Who is to say that they would not break in and steal it. Do not even say that thefts from auto's do not occur in your parking lot because if they do not, yours is the only airport in the country that has not experienced some stereos stolen. Also, have you read the parking lot rules? They always tell you they are not responsible for items left in cars. I really do not wish my firearm to fall in to a criminals hands because it was left in my car.

That's a risk you're going to have to take when you decide to carry. I have carried and disarmed when I have went to the federal building and wasn't allowed to carry inside. No skin off my back. That's what insurance is for. As far as auto burglary in our lots at the airport, feel free to come by and ask for statistical report. Auto burglaries are almost neal to none. Believe what you want, but the stats prove it. Leave your firearm in your trunk if you're worried about theft.

I am also sorry that you do not believe that the 2nd Amendment says what it says. Anyone reading the arguments put forth for the Bill of Rights understand easily that it was intended to recognize an individual right to defend oneself and to do so with arms. The Founding Father's understood full well that recognizing such a right and enumerating it in the Bill of Rights was the only way for Freedom to survive.

Give me a break. If it was understood easily then it wouldn't be the most debatable topic involving the Constitution. Regardless of how you think it reads, my opinion on the matter is more in line with the majority of courts in this country, including the US Supreme Court. Gun regulation is not unconstitutional, hence why my state and many others across this country regulate the wearing of arms outside of the home. I don't think TN's laws are too strict when it comes to firearm carry. An 8-hr class, set of prints, and a fee to the Dept of Safety and you're packing away. Honestly I think a little more is needed (mental eval, more hands on training, self-defense/use of force classes, legal issues, etc), but that's me. Maybe that 300+ number of Permit holders convicted of felonies would drop a little bit if the state invested a little more time/money into the issue, but that's on them.

 

[Fallguy]

I'm surprised about Memphis. The newer Chief there was here at BNA for close to 15 years.

Well I was wrong about one thing...the airport in Memphis is posted.

There was a guy who just recently forget about a handgun in his backpack.

Although it doesn't say in the article, an attorney in Memphis on another board I'm on checked....and both of these guys were charged with 39-17-1359 not 39-17-1307 Just to note, there is one more additional charges on each person.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/dec/10/gun-left-in-bag-grounds-traveler/

Although both of these men were arrested, the attorney I mentioned above represented a man that was only cited for a 1359 violation (no other charges) and the case was dismissed on the first court date.

 

[Fallguy]

Mallick was charged with very two statutes I thought someone would be if caught with a weapon at the security checkpoint in a posted airport.

39-17-1359 (Weapons Prohibited)

39-17-109 (Violation of Sterile Area)

Attached is a copy of the Affidavit

If anyone wants to look it up themselves you can to http://jssi.shelbycountytn.gov/ Under GS Case History choose Name Search enter this persons Name (Last: Mallick First: Frederick) Click Submit on the next page you can click on the Booking # & Charge Group link to see more. Then take the booking number (do not include charge group number) and enter it at this website http://documents.shelbycountytn.gov/affidavits/index.aspx and you can see a copy of the affidavit

 

[Fallguy]

Ricks was charged with the same two 39-17-1359 and 39-17-109, however for whatever reason he was charged the Class E felony part of 39-17-109

(You can go through same procedure as above for Ricks if you like, First name: Ricky)

Not sure what the difference was, and hard to tell from the affidavit. Other than the felony charge on Ricks was in Nov and Mallick's Misdemeanor was in December....so maybe the DA advised them to charge differently?