Gun Rights Lost if Under Indictment?

[Devils Advocate]

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Neplusultra wrote:

The code only permits the trial court or the court that issued the CHP to "suspend" the permit, not revoke it. So the judge erred in that regard. I also fail to understand why the permit should be suspended before due process, especially since there was no indication of evil intent.

As far as the lawfulness of the possession of explosives you need to read further down in the statute.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit the authorized manufacture, transportation, distribution, use or possession of any material, substance, or device by a member of the armed forces of the United States, fire fighters or law-enforcement officers, nor shall it prohibit the manufacture, transportation, distribution, use or possession of any material, substance or device to be used solely for scientific research, educational purposes or for any lawful purpose, subject to the provisions of �� 27-97 and 27-97.2.

A farmer can make a 50 pound bomb to blow a stump out of his field and do so legally in both VA and Federal law. This statute says so and the ATF's explosives regs say so. "Any lawful purpose" covers pretty much everything. Including having fun. I do believe that's still legal isn't it :^)?

In all other cases it gets revoked. Only the folony court case pending should it be suspended.

Do you have something that explicitly says "REVOKED" vs suspended.



Now more on your problem:

"used solely for scientific research, educational purposes or for any lawful purpose, "

Are you a scientist?

Are you a teacher givinga class?

Are you a farmer using it to blow out a stump?

The only one that even comes close to you is "any lawful purpose" but I suspect you were breaking the law making firecrackers and doing so without a permit so that means NONE of them apply to you.

Virginia has a list of permitted fireworks. Firecrackers are not in this list.

So it appears you were doing it without a lawful purpose.

Sorry for the bad news.It looks like you are in hot water.



http://www.vbcoa.org/2003%20USBC%20Codes/Virginia%20Statewide%20Fire%20Prevention%20Code.pdf

3301.2. Permit required. [font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]Permits shall be required as set forth in Section 107.2 and regulated in accordance with this section. The manufacture, storage, possession, sale and use of fireworks or explosives shall not take place without first applying for and obtaining a permit.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][/font]


[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]http://www.americanpyro.com/State%20Laws%20(main)/PDFStates/VA08.pdf[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]
Specifically prohibited

Firecrackers, skyrockets, torpedoes, and other fireworks which explode, travel laterally, rise into the air, or fire projectiles into the air.







[align=left]http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+27-95[/align]
"Fireworks" means any firecracker, torpedo, skyrocket, or other substance or object, of whatever form or construction, that contains any explosive or inflammable compound or substance, and is intended, or commonly known as fireworks, and which explodes, rises into the air or travels laterally, or fires projectiles into the air.

"Permissible fireworks" means any sparklers, fountains, Pharaoh's serpents, caps for pistols, or pinwheels commonly known as whirligigs or spinning jennies.
[/font]

 

[TechnoWeenie]

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Devils Advocate wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

GWRedDragon wrote:

Explosives? Huh?? :shock:

Yeah, the fun stuff . Explosives, the forgotten part of 2A "arms".

I was making firecrackers for the fourth of July using TATP, which is not illegal to do in either VA state or federal law. Most people don't realize that. As long as you are making it for your own personal, non-business use and do not give it away or sell it, do not transport it and use it for legal purposes (ie no blowing up buildings) you are good to go. It's one of those things the government and the media would rather you not know.

So anyway, disgruntled employee #1 quits and reports me to the law. Apparently he gins the story up a bit. So 20-30 LEOs show up (FBI, VSP, Giles County Sheriff (including *the* Sheriff), Pearisburg PD, VSP bomb squad, VSP Hazmat, VSP Canine). It's a long and rather funny story but I can't really go into it much here. Let's just say I'm hoping Danbus can make as much as I do :lol:. My retirement plans are only for the Feds, so far the state has treated me fairly respectfully, unlike the Feds.

... removed

I cannot find where you cannot have firecrackers. I always thought this was the case in Virginia.

The code excludes fireworks but only as a device.It appears they might have you onthe explosive material itself. It is not written in a way that says you can do it in any manner. So you can make the device but you cannot have/make/use the material.

It is my understanding that the courts can revoke your CC permit for any reason. And being charged with a felony is a pretty good reason to me even if I would disagree. Just like you cannot have weapons while a protective order is in place. In neither case have you actually been convicted of a crime.

Not that this is going to actually stop people from picking up a gun and causing harm to someone else while they wait for trial. Pointless to me but I guess it is a reaction to all those incidents in the past where people waiting trial paid someone a visit and caused them some harm. A dead witness or victim cannot testify against you in court.



http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-85

§ 18.2-85. Manufacture, possession, use, etc., of fire bombs or explosive materials or devices; penalties.

For the purpose of this section:

"Device" means any instrument, apparatus or contrivance, including its component parts, that is capable of producing or intended to produce an explosion but shall not include fireworks as defined in § 27-95.

"Explosive material" means any chemical compound, mechanical mixture or device that is commonly used or can be used for the purpose of producing an explosion and which contains any oxidizing and combustive agents or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities or packaging that an ignition by fire, friction, concussion, percussion, detonation or by any part of the compound or mixture may cause a sudden generation of highly heated gases. These materials include, but are not limited to, gunpowder, powders for blasting, high explosives, blasting materials, fuses (other than electric circuit breakers), detonators, and other detonating agents and smokeless powder.

"Fire bomb" means any container of a flammable material such as gasoline, kerosene, fuel oil, or other chemical compound, having a wick composed of any material or a device or other substance which, if set or ignited, is capable of igniting such flammable material or chemical compound but does not include a similar device commercially manufactured and used solely for the purpose of illumination or cooking.

"Hoax explosive device" means any device which by its design, construction, content or characteristics appears to be or to contain a bomb or other destructive device or explosive but which is an imitation of any such device or explosive.

Any person who

(i) possesses materials with which fire bombs or explosive materials or devices can be made

with the intent to manufacture fire bombs or explosive materials or devices

or,

(ii) manufactures, transports, distributes, possesses or uses a fire bomb or explosive materials or devices

shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Any person who constructs, uses, places, sends, or causes to be sent any hoax explosive device so as to intentionally cause another person to believe that such device is a bomb or explosive shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

So gunpowder is illegal to have? So are bullets, they use achemical compound that causes an explosion.



W T F

 

[Devils Advocate]

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

So gunpowder is illegal to have? So are bullets, they use achemical compound that causes an explosion.



W T F

Reloading ammo has a lawful purpose. There are limits on the total amount of powder you can have at one location.

Ammunitionwhen used in a recreational manneralso has a lawful purpose.

 

[Neplusultra]

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Devils Advocate wrote:

In all other cases it gets revoked. Only the folony court case pending should it be suspended.

Do you have something that explicitly says "REVOKED" vs suspended.


Now more on your problem:

"used solely for scientific research, educational purposes or for any lawful purpose, "

Are you a scientist?

Are you a teacher givinga class?

Are you a farmer using it to blow out a stump?

The only one that even comes close to you is "any lawful purpose" but I suspect you were breaking the law making firecrackers and doing so without a permit so that means NONE of them apply to you.

Virginia has a list of permitted fireworks. Firecrackers are not in this list.

So it appears you were doing it without a lawful purpose.

Sorry for the bad news.It looks like you are in hot water.

http://www.vbcoa.org/2003%20USBC%20Codes/Virginia%20Statewide%20Fire%20Prevention%20Code.pdf

3301.2. Permit required. [font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]Permits shall be required as set forth in Section 107.2 and regulated in accordance with this section. The manufacture, storage, possession, sale and use of fireworks or explosives shall not take place without first applying for and obtaining a permit. [/font]

[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]http://www.americanpyro.com/State%20Laws%20(main)/PDFStates/VA08.pdf[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]
Specifically prohibited

Firecrackers, skyrockets, torpedoes, and other fireworks which explode, travel laterally, rise into the air, or fire projectiles into the air.
[align=left]http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+27-95[/align]"Fireworks" means any firecracker, torpedo, skyrocket, or other substance or object, of whatever form or construction, that contains any explosive or inflammable compound or substance, and is intended, or commonly known as fireworks, and which explodes, rises into the air or travels laterally, or fires projectiles into the air.

"Permissible fireworks" means any sparklers, fountains, Pharaoh's serpents, caps for pistols, or pinwheels commonly known as whirligigs or spinning jennies.
[/font]

First part; Yes, I got a letter from the issuing court stating my permit was "REVOKED", in all caps. The section only allows them to suspend it. So again, the judge erred.

Second part:

Actually ALL of them apply to me :^). You don't have to be a "certified scientist" (whatever that is) to do scientific research unless you're willing to say Edison wasn't a scientist, and I was certainly educating myself about the properties of the explosive and it doesn't matter that I'm not a farmer since it's about "lawful purpose". You are failing to make a distinction between commercial enterprise and personal use. A permit is not required for personal use. As is indicated by the persecutor's mention in discovery about "innocent intent". Possessing explosive materials with mal-intent is what this statute is about.

Firecrackers *are* legal in VA, it's just that you can't sell them. You can certainly make them just as I can make my own black powder, which *is* an explosive and is listed in this statute. Amateur fireworks makers do it all the time, as do amateur rocket enthusiasts. It's a lot of fun to make it yourself. It's much the same as the fact you can brew your own beer, which I do, and don't need a permit. But I cannot *sell* it, barter it or exchange it for goods or services. That would make it commercial, remember "manufacture" is a commercial term.

Both the americanpyro and Va state links above are referring to what's called "consumer" fireworks. These are fireworks for sale to the general public. They do not apply to this situation. Generally things that are sold publicly are permitted for public safety reasons.

Edit: Corrected incorrect link reference

 

[hsmith]

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Smokeless powder doesn't explode.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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And 'bullets' are lumps of lead.

 

[Neplusultra]

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hsmith wrote:

Smokeless powder doesn't explode.

True, but it can be used to make a bomb. Even sparklers can be used to make a pretty impressive explosion (the following is not an endorsement):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmrsWnLimMA

If only I had known that when I was a kid :^)!

 

[essayons]

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More info on legal explosives can be found here: http://www.boomershoot.org/

 

[Neplusultra]

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Here's a great site and source for the boomers in the boomer shoot. Dan Tanner is the man! He is the only reason I'm not still in Federal lockup (I was originally remanded until trial). He is the one that informed me of the laws and ATF regulations that the FBI agent, the federal prosecutor and the federal judge did not know about! I just wonder how many others are *still* in jail because the Feds and the defense attorneys didn't know the law!!!

As soon as all this is cleared up I'm buying a boatload of his product as a thank you.

http://tannerite.com/

 

[Guest]

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This is my first response because I wasn't planning on ever replying to any topics but this one is different. This is my opinion good or bad on what I've read. I call it like I have read it.

Neplusultra:

1. You are NOT a Scientist. Scientists keep detailed records of their experiemnts both good and bad results. Edison was a Scientist because of the records kept in every experiment he attempted. Bad analogy.


2. You are NOT a teacher. A teacher is certified to teach by the State, Federal Government or a Licensed Instructor. Unless you have a degree and certified by the State to teach, you cannot. Unless you have been through a certified program that allows you to teach ie; NRA Certified Instructor, Certified Mechanic Instructor, Certified Gunsmith Instructor, etc...you are not a teacher.


3. You are NOT a farmer. Unless you have the land, crops and equipment needed to farm, not garden, you are not a farmer.


I don't know if the laws have changed but, the last time a checked, you had to have a Chemistry degreeand be Licensed through the US Government to work with materials in making explosives ie; fuel bombs, TNT, mines, etc.. Rocketeers do notwork with explosives ie; gunpowder, symtex, c-4, black powder, nitro, etc... They work with chemicals to make propellants. Not explosives. Yes, there is a difference and the Government does watch thelarger rocketeers in the USA.


While under indictment for a felony, your open carrying will only lead to more possible trouble if anything happens while carrying. Whether you win or lose the case, you will be put on a domestic terrorist watch list.


Lastly, you could have driven less than 1 hour and bought fireworks in another State and never have hadto deal with the problems you now face. The FBI (my exfather AND exmother-in-laws were both Division Heads in the FBI at the Hover building)rarely arrests anyone unless they have the evidence to convict. They use Federal law, not State law to convict. Since 9/11, things are different in the USA (Patriot Act). I know not all of what happened has been told but, from what I read so far, your going to jail.

 

[Neplusultra]

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2/75thRanger wrote:

This is my first response because I wasn't planning on ever replying to any topics but this one is different. This is my opinion good or bad on what I've read. I call it like I have read it.

Neplusultra:

1. You are NOT a Scientist. Scientists keep detailed records of their experiemnts both good and bad results. Edison was a Scientist because of the records kept in every experiment he attempted. Bad analogy.


2. You are NOT a teacher. A teacher is certified to teach by the State, Federal Government or a Licensed Instructor. Unless you have a degree and certified by the State to teach, you cannot. Unless you have been through a certified program that allows you to teach ie; NRA Certified Instructor, Certified Mechanic Instructor, Certified Gunsmith Instructor, etc...you are not a teacher.


3. You are NOT a farmer. Unless you have the land, crops and equipment needed to farm, not garden, you are not a farmer.


I don't know if the laws have changed but, the last time a checked, you had to have a Chemistry degreeand be Licensed through the US Government to work with materials in making explosives ie; fuel bombs, TNT, mines, etc.. Rocketeers do notwork with explosives ie; gunpowder, symtex, c-4, black powder, nitro, etc... They work with chemicals to make propellants. Not explosives. Yes, there is a difference and the Government does watch thelarger rocketeers in the USA.


While under indictment for a felony, your open carrying will only lead to more possible trouble if anything happens while carrying. Whether you win or lose the case, you will be put on a domestic terrorist watch list.


Lastly, you could have driven less than 1 hour and bought fireworks in another State and never have hadto deal with the problems you now face. The FBI (my exfather AND exmother-in-laws were both Division Heads in the FBI at the Hover building)rarely arrests anyone unless they have the evidence to convict. They use Federal law, not State law to convict. Since 9/11, things are different in the USA (Patriot Act). I know not all of what happened has been told but, from what I read so far, your going to jail.

2/75 Welcome to the board. I hope you're not as anti-freedom as some ex-military are. I'm assuming your out.

I have to ask you a question first, you're not the FBI agent that arrested me are you? Because he had no idea of what the law is and he was trained in this area :^).

First, your definition of a scientist is completely wrong. A scientist is someone who uses the scientific method and generally takes measurements to better understand the natural world. He does not have to be school taught and he is not defined by taking notes. Plus, how do you know I "didn't" take notes :^)?

Second, you need to read the law more closely, more accurately. It doesn't mention being a teacher, it mentions "educational purposes", which is exactly what I was doing. I became curious about the explosive after the 7/7 bombings in London, three years later I made some to see what it was all about. I found out a lot about it and how much the news media had hyped it.

Third, that's right I'm not a farmer, nor do I need to be one. It says "lawful purpose" There is no law against making explosives. There are plenty of laws against using them to blow things up which you shouldn't be blowing up such as buildings etc. In a free society like ours "lawful purpose" means anything the law does not specifically forbid.

Fourth, You have never had to have a chemistry degree to make explosives. You do need an explosives license if you manufacture explosives for commercial purposes. And you are very wrong, black powder is *very* commonly used to make amateur rocket motors. The government watches high power rocketeers because the technology can be used to hit a plane at altitude, accidentally or on purpose. High power rockets can only be fired in certain areas and must get FAA clearance first.

Fifth, I fail to see if something happens while open carrying how I would be put on a domestic terrorist list. Are you sure you're not the FBI agent. That sounds like something he would say.

Sixth, The FBI is like any other law enforcement agency. They do not arrest unless they "think" they have the evidence to convict. In this case they were dead wrong and arrested me falsely, ala Danbus. Except I was in jail for 10 days while they first realized their mistake and then tried to figure a way out. I was arrested for (supposedly) violating 18 USC 842.a1 "manufacturing explosives without a license." Now read the quote below. This is from the ATF's Federal Explosives Law and Regulations 2007 (latest edition), "The Orange Book". You can download a pdf of this book from the ATF's website. From the questions and answers section:

37. When is a manufacturer’s license required?
A manufacturer’s license is required by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for their own business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer’s license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit. [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)] A separate manufacturer’s license is not required by a licensed manufacturer for the purpose of on-site manufacture, for example, mixing binary explosives or making blasting agents at a quarry or other job site. It is not necessary for a licensed manufacturer to also obtain a dealer’s license to engage in business on his or her licensed premises as a dealer in explosive materials (see also Question 52 and 53) [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)(2)]
38

You also need not go beyond the few arrests and other issues the FBI has had in the past that resulted in court settlements to see that they aren't unerring gods. Such examples as Richard Jewell in the Olympic Park Bombing or recently the antrax scientist Steven Hatfill who IIRC got a $5.8 million settlement.

Again, Thank you Dan Tanner of tannerite.com. Why would you buy firecrackers when you can have the fun of making them yourself legally?

 

[Guest]

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You posted this topic for opinions, sympathy, legal ideas orwhatever.After reading what is on the board, I gave my opinion.

I didn't say you were one of the 3 type people mentioned. I was looking at the 3 different types from aprosecutors standpoint, educational purposes, lawful purpose, etc..Although I wrote it simplisticly for expedience, record keeping includes the peramiters, measurements, etc..

You can nitpick what I wrote till the cows come home. Like I said, you have not told everything and what you have told is let's say, one sided. My opinion, like everyone elses opinion on this entire board is just that, an opinion of anyinformation given.

I say (my opinion) your going to jail. If you don't, so what? It's only an opinion. Ifyou get off of the charges, I'm happy for you and wish you well.

I am a 2Aactivist. I don't believe in tax stamps for full autos, canons, flame throwers, etc... I don't believe in any type firearm registration because it gives the Government a paper trail. I believe if you want to carry a handgun for protection no license should be needed for CC or OC and should be legal to carry in ANY and ALL buildings. That's a few progun stances I have.

I read posts from every State listed on this site for 3 weeks until I joined. There are some fine people here. I have also seen racism, arrogance, bravado, stubborness and down rightidiocyto name a few. I'llalways support the 2A but I think I'm done with this site. I amanything butthin skinned. There are more important things in my life than peoples problems. Good luck to all.

 

[Neplusultra]

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2/75thRanger wrote:

I am a 2Aactivist. I don't believe in tax stamps for full autos, canons, flame throwers, etc... I don't believe in any type firearm registration because it gives the Government a paper trail. I believe if you want to carry a handgun for protection no license should be needed for CC or OC and should be legal to carry in ANY and ALL buildings. That's a few progun stances I have.

Good, we're pretty much in agreement then. I've got a question. Are explosives an "arm"?

Edit: Better "armament"?