Help with the School Property law

[TFred]

I'm not at all confident SCOTUS would even hear a case involving this law much less overturn it. It's been used as an add-on crime several times now without being overturned.

Which is why it is a bad law. They only "use" it when they know they have a case that will not make a good appeal. If PVC were arrested for walking down the street 950' away from a school, I suspect it would eventually be overturned. That is why PVC will never be arrested for walking down the street 950' away from a school.

It disgusts me that they use this law to alter the behavior of nearly every citizen, but only apply it in situations that they know are "safe" for them to do so. There is something inherently wrong here.

TFred

 

[BillB]

Which is why it is a bad law. They only "use" it when they know they have a case that will not make a good appeal. If PVC were arrested for walking down the street 950' away from a school, I suspect it would eventually be overturned. That is why PVC will never be arrested for walking down the street 950' away from a school.

It disgusts me that they use this law to alter the behavior of nearly every citizen, but only apply it in situations that they know are "safe" for them to do so. There is something inherently wrong here.

TFred

Given the stakes of a felony conviction, it's a game I choose not to play.

In a previous post I alluded to the fact that lots of federal agencies have agents with arrest powers. Did a little checking and it's worse than I thought:

"More than a few eyebrows were raised when the U.S. Department of Education purchased 27 police-grade shotguns. However, the Department of Education is just one of 73 federal government agencies employing full-time law enforcement officers who are authorized to carry firearms and make arrests in the United States."

Among these:

U.S. Customs and Border Protection (36,863 officers)
Federal Bureau of Prisons (16,835)
Federal Bureau of Investigation (12,760)
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (12,446)
U.S. Secret Service (5,213)
Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts (4,696)
Drug Enforcement Administration (4,308)
U.S. Marshals Service (3,313)
Veterans Health Administration (3,128)
Internal Revenue Service, Criminal Investigation (2,636)
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (2,541)
U.S. Postal Inspection Service (2,288)
U.S. Capitol Police (1,637)
National Park Service - Rangers (1,404)
Bureau of Diplomatic Security (1,049)
Pentagon Force Protection Agency (725)
U.S. Forest Service (644)
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (598)
National Park Service - U.S. Park Police (547)
National Nuclear Security Administration (363)
U.S. Mint Police (316)
Amtrak Police (305)
Bureau of Indian Affairs (277)
Bureau of Land Management (255)


The Not-So-Obvious Federal Law Enforcement Agencies

In 2008, another 16 federal agencies not so typically associated with police powers employed fewer than 250 full-time personnel with firearm and arrest authority. These included:
Bureau of Engraving and Printing (207 officers)
Environmental Protection Agency (202)
Food and Drug Administration (183)
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (149)
Tennessee Valley Authority (145)
Federal Reserve Board (141)
U.S. Supreme Court (139)
Bureau of Industry and Security (103)
National Institutes of Health (94)
Library of Congress (85)*
Federal Emergency Management Agency (84)
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (62)
Government Printing Office (41)
National Institute of Standards & Technology (28)
Smithsonian National Zoological Park (26)
Bureau of Reclamation (21)

source: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecurity/a/Firearms-Authority-Of-Government-Agencies.htm

 

[peter nap]

...

 

[markand]

Hope this doesn't muddy the waters, so to speak, but what about people who home school their kids. Is their home a "school" for the purposes of 18.2-308.1?

 

[mobeewan]

I have wondered about the lagality of OC or CC at our local city stadium used for school sporting events. It is also used for paid events and opened to the public for jogging. It appears to be under the city parks and recreation department. Could OC or CC be legal at paid events or any other activity that is not school related if the property is not owned by the school system?


http://www.hampton.gov/parks/darling_stadium.html

Darling Stadium
This state of the art stadium is the host for football, soccer, track, and special events for the Hampton school system.
Address: 4111 Victoria Boulevard, Hampton, VA 23669
Hours of Operation: The stadium is open for public jogging year round from 7:00AM – 3:30PM on Monday - Friday. All other paid events are scheduled in advance. For scheduling information call (757) 727-8311.

 

[nuc65]

Here is a rather frightening scenario and an example of how the GFSZ has bled over into VA law:

Let's say you need to pick up your child from school. So, you park on a public street near the school and decide to unload your pistol before leaving it in your locked car. Oops, you have an ND while unloading - no one hurt because you kept the gun pointed in a safe direction. However, the police show up and you are charged. You are charged with: § 18.2-280. Willfully discharging firearms in public places.

Now although your ND was unintentional, note that this statute has an or clause saying; "or causes to be discharged." So, despite the title having willfully in it, an ND falls under this statue too. In fact, this is what the guy who had the ND at Hooter's following a gun show is charged with - in his case it's a class 6 felony due to another person being injured (shot).

In the scenario, nobody was injured. But, it's even worse than the Hooter's incident. It's a class 4 felony. What, you say! That's right it's a class 4 felony because it happened on public property within a 1000 feet of a school: Here's the statute's applicable section:

"C. If any person willfully discharges or causes to be discharged any firearm upon any public property within 1,000 feet of the property line of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school property he shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony, unless he is engaged in lawful hunting."

The GFSZ law no one wants to worry about can bite you where you least expect it. Work to get it off the books!

Seems like this one can bite you even if you are defending your life or the life of a loved one.

 

[BillB]

Seems like this one can bite you even if you are defending your life or the life of a loved one.

No, that falls under one of the exceptions:


"D. This section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his official duties nor to any other person whose said willful act is otherwise justifiable or excusable at law in the protection of his life or property, or is otherwise specifically authorized by law."

 

[Thundar]

I am not sure I agree with all this.

The words, "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section", in no way mean that ALL the exemptions apply equally or as written. It literally means, "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, having changed what needed to be changed, to the provisions of this section" or even more literally "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, as ammended in this paragraph, to the provisions of this section"

FOR EXAMPLE:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry; penalty.

B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Now we know that teachers cannot carry to work.

Where is the precedence set that ALL the exemptions in § 18.2-308 shall apply as written? This could mean that one could unload and wrap up you gun collection, strap them to your back and walk through a school and say you were on your way to the range? I am pretty sure that is not the intent of the law.

I am in a perpetual state of confusion.

So, if a private contractor has a food concession in a school cafeteria, then they can be armed, right?

 

[Grapeshot]

So, if a private contractor has a food concession in a school cafeteria, then they can be armed, right?

Suspect that a plain reading of their contract will likely say differently.

 

[ed]

So, if a private contractor has a food concession in a school cafeteria, then they can be armed, right?

The contractor may own his/her food concession business, but I think they would be hard pressed to call it their own PLACE of business.

 

[Marco]

Few would disagree with your bolded statement. The point is that it isn't happening now, so until it does, there isn't much point in worrying about it any more than we ever have. I absolutely hate the GFSZA, it's a big hammer that the Feds hold over every law abiding gun owner's head. If it ever makes its way back to the SCOTUS, I'm quite sure it would be struck down. You could probably sell tickets to hear Alan Gura's oral arguments against it. But as is always the case, nobody wants to be the test.

TFred

Many of us OC within a 1000' of a GFSZA daily and have no state permission slip.
I do it daily yr round and have been doing so in VA since 2005 and will continue to do so until........

 

[BillB]

I'm an advocate for us gun carriers working to change the law rather than just ignore it and break it.

 

[Marco]

I'm an advocate for us gun carriers working to change the law rather than just ignore it and break it.

Me too. All of us need to be working to get it changed/repealed.

However, I and many others believe the law is illegal, unconstitutional and un-enforcable.
Sodomy (defined as unnatural acts to include oral and anal sex) was illegal in America until 2003 when the supreme court deemed it unconstitutional, did you ignore or break that law?


If it were enforcable we would have folks being arrested daily for violating it throughout these United States. There are many cities etc... where one couldn't step out off their property and not be within a 1000' from a GFSZ.
IIRC, there was pic of the greater Phoenix area showing just that.

So imagine all the folks that keep loaded firearms with them and don't have a permit for the state they reside in being arrested.
OC for those without a permit and for those that just have a loaded firearm with them would mean automatic arrest if seen/discovered, yet it ain't happening.

All the LEo's I know love an easy arrest especially when it's a felony. Why would so many pass of the chance?
My local sherrif passes on the chance at least one day a month when we see each other at the BOS meetings.

 

[peter nap]

I'm an advocate for us gun carriers working to change the law rather than just ignore it and break it.

I think everyone knows how you feel Bill.