Henderson handgun registration.

[The Big Guy]

My answer an request for information.

The following is my response to the letter above, and request under NRS 239 (thanks Tread). Please excuse the formatting as I can't get it to cut and paste correctly on here, but I think you will get the message.

TBG

01/21/13

Josh Reid, City Attorney
Henderson City Hall
POB 95050
Henderson NV 89009-5050

Dear Mr. Reid,

I am in receipt of a letter from Assistant City Attorney Michael J. Oh dated December 10, 2012. There are several points I would like to make regarding
this communication. Firstly, as is typical, it did not respond to many of the questions raised in my letter to the Mayor and Council members dated
10/10/2012.
The letter stated that there is a desk officer scheduled at the times during which handgun registration is taken so it adds no additional expense to the
city. Are you saying the desk officer has nothing better to do, so he might as well spend this time taking un-required registration on behalf of Clark
County? Perhaps that job needs to be eliminated thus saving the city much needed funds. In fact, it has been recommended to the city that it stop staffing
this position with a sworn officer. This recommendation was made by the International City/County Management Association. This Association was hired by the
City of Henderson at a cost of $80,000.00.

Anyone in business should be able to tell you that there is a cost associated with every task assigned to an employee. This cost is referred to in terms
of man-hours.

This letter, as did a previous one from A.C.A. Zentz, seems to indicate that it is ok for the city to continue to enforce its illegal codes until such
time as the City Attorney’s office gets around to reviewing all city codes and making a recommendation to the Mayor and Council. Perhaps the citizens
of Henderson should put the city on notice that we have decided not to obey any city ordinances until such time as this review is completed. The city
must obey state law as we the citizens must obey city ordinances.

Pursuant to NRS Chapter 239 I hereby request the following:
1. Any document in the City's possession containing the authority with which the city of Henderson has been registering concealable firearms on behalf
of the County since preemption in 2007.
2. When did the City of Henderson stop registering handguns in favor of County registration? Please provide a copy of any agreement or ordinance
authorized by the council between the City of Henderson and Clark County.
3. Any document file or other media containing the number of firearms in the database, in the possession of the Henderson Chief of police per HMC 8.98.030,
which were registered before the city turned this responsibility over to the county?
4. If there are no records, when were these records purged?
5. How many arrests have been made under municipal code 8.98.030 since 2007?
6. Of these arrests, how many resulted in convictions, including case numbers and dates with names of those arrested?
7. How many of these charges have been dropped?
8. How many of these arrests have resulted in acquittals?
9. How many firearms have been seized by Henderson Police under 8.98.03 since NRS 268.418 came into effect in 2007 even if there were no charges filed?
10. Per NRS 202.340, what are the dispositions of those firearms?

I look forward to a timely reply.

Sincerely,

XXX X XXX

CC: Andy Hafen, Mayor
Jacob Snow, City Manager
Council Members Gerri Schroder, Debra March, John Marz, Sam Bateman
Don Turner, President, Nevada Firearms Coalition.
Dan Reid, State Liaison, National Rifle Association.

 

[MAC702]

Since they have desk sergeants (and presumably others) with nothing better to do, it shouldn't take long for someone to get the answers.

Nicely written.

 

[jdholmes]

Very nice. The desk job certainly does not need to be filled by a sworn officer. It's a receptionist job with an officers pay. Something off about that IMO.

 

[MAC702]

Well, I remember when Metro's desk was staffed by a sergeant. You could go in, and he actually knew what he was doing. He handled handgun registration and other business.

Now, the ladies at the desk are clueless. I've yet to do a handgun registration since where I didn't have to correct them on what a gun was or what numbers to use.

I think the desk should be staffed by a cop. I also think there should be no handgun registration so this guy can actually do cop stuff.

 

[The Big Guy]

Request received.

I just received the following email:

TBG


Dear XXX XXX,

Thank you for your request received on 01/29/2013 regarding Records Requests>Other. It has been assigned ID# efm 13-150008.

You will receive a response to your request within 5 business days. If you should have any further questions please feel free to contact us again and refer to the identification number above.

Below is a link to your case in Contact Henderson. You may access your case(s) at any time when logging into Contact Henderson. You may add additional information or view any correspondence on the case with the City of Henderson. If you need to retrieve your Username and Password, please click on the "Lost your password" link, from the Contact Henderson-City of Henderson Login page (link below), and the information will be sent to your registered email address.

https://clients.comcate.com/myfeedbackView.php?view=554091&id=90

Sincerely,
City of Henderson
http://www.cityofhenderson.com

 

[MAC702]

Very nice. The desk job certainly does not need to be filled by a sworn officer. It's a receptionist job with an officers pay. Something off about that IMO.

When you think about it, everything cops do outside of SWAT is administrative customer service. They are glorified paper pushers, literally.

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

I just received the following email:

TBG


Dear XXX XXX,

Thank you for your request received on 01/29/2013 regarding Records Requests>Other. It has been assigned ID# efm 13-150008.

You will receive a response to your request within 5 business days. If you should have any further questions please feel free to contact us again and refer to the identification number above.

Below is a link to your case in Contact Henderson. You may access your case(s) at any time when logging into Contact Henderson. You may add additional information or view any correspondence on the case with the City of Henderson. If you need to retrieve your Username and Password, please click on the "Lost your password" link, from the Contact Henderson-City of Henderson Login page (link below), and the information will be sent to your registered email address.

https://clients.comcate.com/myfeedbackView.php?view=554091&id=90

Sincerely,
City of Henderson
http://www.cityofhenderson.com

It looks as if they have taken notice of NRS 239 It was not always so, I remember being told by the assistant City attorney that if I wanted info from Henderson I would have to sue to get it: I threatened Citizens arrest:

Janette Reyes-Spear
CC, Josh Reed 2-8-2012
City Attorneys Office
City Of Henderson, Nevada


On 2-2-2012, I submitted a public records request in person and on paper in accordance to the instructions provided by the lady at the window, (Kim.) I asked for the opportunity to view the file of Nelson Ruehl/ Dwight Feagle case # 09TR16361sSo I could obtain the copies I wished to keep for my records.

• Pursuant to NRS 239 it is established that the Henderson City Attorney's Office has custody of the desired documents,
• Pursuant to NRS 239 it is established that the Henderson City Attorney's Office is by definition a governmental entity and subject to the laws herein,
• Pursuant to NRS 239 the Office of the City Attorney has the burden of PROOF when deeming a public record confidential.

NRS 239.010 Public books and public records open to inspection; confidential information in public books and records; copyrighted books and records; copies to be provided in medium requested.
1. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 3, all public books and public records of a governmental entity, the contents of which are not otherwise declared by law to be confidential, must be open at all times during office hours to inspection by any person, and may be fully copied or an abstract or memorandum may be prepared from those public books and public records. Any such copies, abstracts or memoranda may be used to supply the general public with copies, abstracts or memoranda of the records or may be used in any other way to the advantage of the governmental entity or of the general public. This section does not supersede or in any manner affect the federal laws governing copyrights or enlarge, diminish or affect in any other manner the rights of a person in any written book or record which is copyrighted pursuant to federal law.

Subsection 3.
3. A governmental entity that has legal custody or control of a public book or record shall not deny a request made pursuant to subsection 1 to inspect or copy a public book or record on the basis that the requested public book or record contains information that is confidential if the governmental entity can redact, delete, conceal or separate the confidential information from the information included in the public book or record that is not otherwise confidential

Burden of Proof
NRS 239.0113 Burden of proof where confidentiality of public book or record is at issue. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 239.0115, if:
1. The confidentiality of a public book or record, or a part thereof, is at issue in a judicial or administrative proceeding; and
2. The governmental entity that has legal custody or control of the public book or record asserts that the public book or record, or a part thereof, is confidential,
 the governmental entity has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that the public book or record, or a part thereof, is confidential.

(d) If the governmental entity must deny the person’s request to inspect or copy the public book or record because the public book or record, or a part thereof, is confidential, provide to the person, in writing:
(1) Notice of that fact; and
(2) A citation to the specific statute or other legal authority that makes the public book or record, or a part thereof, confidential.
2. The provisions of this section must not be construed to prohibit an oral request to inspect or copy a public book or record.

I received a phone call from Chris Jones, #9843, today, 2-8-2012, denying my records request. I asked Chris Jones to deny my records request in writing so that he may cite the confidentiality of the records per the NRS. He declined. Mr. Jones, #9843, told me to "initiate an action," if I do not like his response. This behavior by Chris Jones does not reflect the "spirit" of the law, as written by the Nevada Legislature:

NRS 239.001 Legislative findings and declaration. The Legislature hereby finds and declares that:
1. The purpose of this chapter is to foster democratic principles by providing members of the public with access to inspect and copy public books and records to the extent permitted by law;
2. The provisions of this chapter must be construed liberally to carry out this important purpose;
3. Any exemption, exception or balancing of interests which limits or restricts access to public books and records by members of the public must be construed narrowly; and
4. The use of private entities in the provision of public services must not deprive members of the public access to inspect and copy books and records relating to the provision of those services.
(Added to NRS by 2007, 2061; A 2011, 2723)
The professionalism of Mr. Jones, #9843, is in question. Mr. Jones was asking about my personal relationship to Mr. Ruehl, as if that had any legal standing or relevance to the records requested. When asked what bearing that had on my public records request, Mr. Jones, #9843, could not or did not respond. In the event that I am denied the public record and the denial is deficient in regards to applicable NRS, I will have no choice but to effect a citizen's arrest on Mr. Jones pursuant to law:

NRS 239.300 Stealing, altering or defacing records, documents or instruments. A person who:
1. Steals, embezzles, corrupts, alters, withdraws, falsifies or avoids any record, process, charter, gift, grant, conveyance, bond or contract;
2. Knowingly or willfully, takes off, discharges or conceals any issue, forfeited recognizance or other forfeiture;
3. Forges, defaces or falsifies any document or instrument recorded or filed in any court, or any registered acknowledgment or certificate; or
4. Steals, alters, defaces or falsifies any minute, document, book or any proceedings of or belonging to any public office within this state,
 is guilty of a category C felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.
[Part 61:108:1866; B § 2659; BH § 1696; C § 1842; RL § 2817; NCL § 4817]—(NRS A 1967, 533; 1979, 1463; 1983, 266; 1995, 1263)
In liberty,

I had up to that point never heard of them assigning Records request number Etc. Once again it appears that Henderson is the Proactive City within our valley

 

[The Big Guy]

It looks as if they have taken notice of NRS 239 It was not always so, I remember being told by the assistant City attorney that if I wanted info from Henderson I would have to sue to get it: I threatened Citizens arrest:


I had up to that point never heard of them assigning Records request number Etc. Once again it appears that Henderson is the Proactive City within our valley

Depending on their answers to my questions, I have more to hit them with.

TBG

 

[The Big Guy]

I just received an answer to my demand, sort of. It tells me that I need to pony up $601.60, half in advance, before they start searching for the records. I'm guessing it took A.C.A Oh and the City Clerk’s Office a considerable amount of time to put together his response with all the charts of man hours and costs.

Gee, why didn't they have the desk officer at the police station dig up the records? They already told me he is there anyway and has nothing better to do.

I'll try to figure out how to post it with his pretty charts and all.

TBG

 

[The Big Guy]

NRS 239.005 Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. "Actual cost" means the direct cost related to the reproduction of a public record. The term does not include a cost that a governmental entity incurs regardless of whether or not a person requests a copy of a particular public record.


Interesting, huh?

"The game's afoot."

TBG

 

[Vegassteve]

I'm confused. If you didn't give them money then what charts etc did they give you?

 

[oc4ever]

cost normally don't include manhours

Most public records act laws allow for copying cost at whatever the city charges per page(normally quite reasonable). All the labor it takes to find and collate and prepare is not normally allowed to be charged at all. If it was, each city would send big bills to discourage the request, like here. A $600 plus bill seems outrageous. What are you paying for "half upfront" if you don't even know the volume of paperwork you are going to get. I would remind whoever sent that bill request (in writing )that they should reconsider no payment until they can provide you the scope of material they are planning on furnishing. You should be able to go review what documents they will give you in person and ONLY pay for copies of the parts that you need.

 

[The Big Guy]

I'm confused. If you didn't give them money then what charts etc did they give you?

They are nice charts showing the labor and costs of each deparments expected man hours in complying with my requests.

Interesting, huh?

TBG

 

[The Big Guy]

Most public records act laws allow for copying cost at whatever the city charges per page(normally quite reasonable). All the labor it takes to find and collate and prepare is not normally allowed to be charged at all. If it was, each city would send big bills to discourage the request, like here. A $600 plus bill seems outrageous. What are you paying for "half upfront" if you don't even know the volume of paperwork you are going to get. I would remind whoever sent that bill request (in writing )that they should reconsider no payment until they can provide you the scope of material they are planning on furnishing. You should be able to go review what documents they will give you in person and ONLY pay for copies of the parts that you need.

Of course they are playing lawyer games with me betting that I'm not capable of reading the statues and that they will scare me off with their lawyer bluff.

As posted above, NRS 239.005 and also I think NRS 239.010, cover it. They are not allowed to charge me to "search" the public records but must comply. They can only charge a reasonable copy fee for those records I want them to copy. They must make the records available to me during regular business hours so that I may determine what I want copies of, or to take my own notes.

TBG

 

[Flash1903]

I just received the following email:

TBG


Dear XXX XXX,

Thank you for your request received on 01/29/2013 regarding Records Requests>Other. It has been assigned ID# efm 13-150008.

You will receive a response to your request within 5 business days. If you should have any further questions please feel free to contact us again and refer to the identification number above.

Below is a link to your case in Contact Henderson. You may access your case(s) at any time when logging into Contact Henderson. You may add additional information or view any correspondence on the case with the City of Henderson. If you need to retrieve your Username and Password, please click on the "Lost your password" link, from the Contact Henderson-City of Henderson Login page (link below), and the information will be sent to your registered email address.

https://clients.comcate.com/myfeedbackView.php?view=554091&id=90

Sincerely,
City of Henderson
http://www.cityofhenderson.com

TBG- I believe you are starting to get to them. You are very well informed, and I enjoy reading this. I almost cant wait for the response! As always, keep up the great work!

 

[The Big Guy]

TBG- I believe you are starting to get to them. You are very well informed, and I enjoy reading this. I almost cant wait for the response! As always, keep up the great work!

Naw, those that know me certainly know I'm not all that bright, just persistent. The wife uses the word stubborn.

I think they're nervous. The idea is to keep piling the chicken poop on them until they cry uncle and decide it's easier to obey state law than to fight over it. That strategy worked in getting them to give in on park and city building carry. Might work here but I'm dealing with a new City Attorney on this one. You might know the family, Reid. Yes, Harry's boy. They certainly know they don't have a legal leg to stand on and it would seem to me easier for them to cave on this than on park/building carry.

The letter from them is in PDF format and I am not smart enough to figure out how to post it on here. With some advice from Tread and Don Turner, thank you very much, I have responded to them. My response is at work and I'll get it posted on here in the future.

At least lawyers are good for laughs.

TBG

 

[oc4ever]

Claim for damages?

Naw, those that know me certainly know I'm not all that bright, just persistent. The wife uses the word stubborn.

I think they're nervous. The idea is to keep piling the chicken poop on them until they cry uncle and decide it's easier to obey state law than to fight over it. That strategy worked in getting them to give in on park and city building carry. Might work here but I'm dealing with a new City Attorney on this one. You might know the family, Reid. Yes, Harry's boy. They certainly know they don't have a legal leg to stand on and it would seem to me easier for them to cave on this than on park/building carry.

The letter from them is in PDF format and I am not smart enough to figure out how to post it on here. With some advice from Tread and Don Turner, thank you very much, I have responded to them. My response is at work and I'll get it posted on here in the future.

At least lawyers are good for laughs.

TBG

At this point you could send the City a claim for damages(preparation of a lawsuit) for violation of the above listed under the Public Records Act law(s). I am sure someone from the City is reading this forum, so if they don't comply post haste, it will not be hard to find a lawyer that will make them. All legal fees will have to paid by the the City, and it will probably cost them over 50K in legal cost. You might also contact your State Rep and or the Attorney General's Office, this is a clear law violation. City of Henderson wake up, or get out your checkbook!

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

At this point you could send the City a claim for damages(preparation of a lawsuit) for violation of the above listed under the Public Records Act law(s). I am sure someone from the City is reading this forum, so if they don't comply post haste, it will not be hard to find a lawyer that will make them. All legal fees will have to paid by the the City, and it will probably cost them over 50K in legal cost. You might also contact your State Rep and or the Attorney General's Office, this is a clear law violation. City of Henderson wake up, or get out your checkbook!

This is the exact pile of doo doo that the Sheriffs and Chiefs stepped in. METRO is probably the worst offender, Yet they "Conceal" public records as a rule... The Beauty of their practice is it is much easier to "cherry pick" when you have had enough of them breaking the law.

 

[The Big Guy]

Below is my response to the City of Henderson:

TBG



02/01/13



Michael J. Oh
Assistant City Attorney
City of Henderson
PO Box 95050
Henderson, NV 89009


Dear Mr. Oh:

I am in receipt of your letter of 01/31/13 in response to my request for information under NRS 239.

You state that there will be an estimated cost to me of $601.60 to gather such records. You further state that I will be required to advance one half of this cost before you begin the gathering of this information.

Please allow me to point you to the following under Nevada statutes:

NRS 239.001 Legislative findings and declaration. The Legislature hereby finds and declares that:
1. The purpose of this chapter is to foster democratic principles by providing members of the public with access to inspect and copy public books and records to the extent permitted by law;
2. The provisions of this chapter must be construed liberally to carry out this important purpose;
3. Any exemption, exception or balancing of interests which limits or restricts access to public books and records by members of the public must be construed narrowly; and
4. The use of private entities in the provision of public services must not deprive members of the public access to inspect and copy books and records relating to the provision of those services.
(Added to NRS by 2007, 2061; A 2011, 2723)
NRS 239.005 Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. “Actual cost” means the direct cost related to the reproduction of a public record. The term does not include a cost that a governmental entity incurs regardless of whether or not a person requests a copy of a particular public record.

NRS 239.010 Public books and public records open to inspection; confidential information in public books and records; copyrighted books and records; copies to be provided in medium requested.
1. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 3, all public books and public records of a governmental entity, the contents of which are not otherwise declared by law to be confidential, must be open at all times during office hours to inspection by any person, and may be fully copied or an abstract or memorandum may be prepared from those public books and public records. Any such copies, abstracts or memoranda may be used to supply the general public with copies, abstracts or memoranda of the records or may be used in any other way to the advantage of the governmental entity or of the general public. This section does not supersede or in any manner affect the federal laws governing copyrights or enlarge, diminish or affect in any other manner the rights of a person in any written book or record which is copyrighted pursuant to federal law.

With regard to my request for records as outlined in my previous letter, I further add the following under NRS 239:

11. The open records policy as adopted by the City of Henderson.
12. Copies of any papers generated pertaining to the estimate for NORA Request # EFM 13-150008

Many of the requests for records I have asked for should be readily available to you. As an example under NRS 179.119 the city is required to maintain records of firearms seized and the disposal of them.

These records can be made available for inspection, and I will determine then which documents I might need copies of.

I look forward to your timely compliance with my requests.


Regards


CC: City Manager Jacob Snow, Mayor Andy Hafen, City Attorney Josh Reid,
Council members Gerri Schroder, Debra March, John Marz, Sam Bateman,
Don Turner Pres. NVFAC, Dan Reid State Liaison NRA

 

[jpa]

They are nice charts showing the labor and costs of each deparments expected man hours in complying with my requests.

Interesting, huh?

TBG

Do you mean this pdf? http://www.cityofhenderson.com/city_clerk/images/RecordsFeeSchedule01-12.pdf

http://www.cityofhenderson.com/city_clerk/public_records_requests.php

Apparently the city has passed their own ordinance establishing a fee schedule and a records and archives department. They even have a committee that's supposed to review denied records requests (hint hint).