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Hypothetical: Husband and wife have CPLs and this happens?

RenegadeMarine

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Passenger is not transporting the weapon.
AG opinion http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10212.htm

Thanks Gort. Ok, so after re-reading the opinion it is still not totally clear to me. The AG used the words "lawfully contained" and "only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon" in the same sentence. So which is it? Is he saying that the only way possibly avoid prosecution would be to have the weapon "lawfully contained"? Or can the weapon be loaded in a center console or other compartment, and the passenger still be considered "Not carrying the weapon"? I think it would be difficult to be "carrying" the weapon and be "lawfully contained" at the same time.

"It is my opinion, therefore, in answer to your second question, that a person who is not licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a vehicle in which a pistol has been left that is lawfully contained and that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle, only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon, a determination that depends on the facts of each case."

[SUP]2[/SUP]By using the term "lawfully contained," it is understood that the pistol left in the vehicle is either (1) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle; or (2) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. See MCL 750.231a(1)(d) and (e).


And then there is also this little tid-bit, I tried to look up the case that he cited but I could not find it, I'm guessing because it is unpublished:
"The fact that a pistol is lawfully contained does not necessarily exempt a person from possible prosecution under section 227(2). See, for example, People v Wilson, 2001 Mich App LEXIS 1144 (unpublished), in which the Court of Appeals held that the defendant was subject to prosecution under section 227(2), notwithstanding that the pistol was locked in the truck of a vehicle."

So what do you guys think?

Sorry Venator, I'm not trying to derail your thread, as I know this does not fall into the scope of your hypothetical situation, I was just trying to clear up another poster's statements.
 

Venator

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Thanks Gort. Ok, so after re-reading the opinion it is still not totally clear to me. The AG used the words "lawfully contained" and "only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon" in the same sentence. So which is it? Is he saying that the only way possibly avoid prosecution would be to have the weapon "lawfully contained"? Or can the weapon be loaded in a center console or other compartment, and the passenger still be considered "Not carrying the weapon"? I think it would be difficult to be "carrying" the weapon and be "lawfully contained" at the same time.

"It is my opinion, therefore, in answer to your second question, that a person who is not licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a vehicle in which a pistol has been left that is lawfully contained and that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle, only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon, a determination that depends on the facts of each case."

[SUP]2[/SUP]By using the term "lawfully contained," it is understood that the pistol left in the vehicle is either (1) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle; or (2) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. See MCL 750.231a(1)(d) and (e).


And then there is also this little tid-bit, I tried to look up the case that he cited but I could not find it, I'm guessing because it is unpublished:
"The fact that a pistol is lawfully contained does not necessarily exempt a person from possible prosecution under section 227(2). See, for example, People v Wilson, 2001 Mich App LEXIS 1144 (unpublished), in which the Court of Appeals held that the defendant was subject to prosecution under section 227(2), notwithstanding that the pistol was locked in the truck of a vehicle."

So what do you guys think?

Sorry Venator, I'm not trying to derail your thread, as I know this does not fall into the scope of your hypothetical situation, I was just trying to clear up another poster's statements.

The AG opinion stated that as long as the gun was properly stored unloaded in the trunk, etc. the person was in the clear. If the gun was loaded in a console, then they could be charged.
 

Venator

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Understood, but making an analogy as you said the guns were registered to the husband. Just as if the Vehicle were registered to the husband but the wife was driving, SHE'S in possession. She's in control. As the responsible person in control, she has possession of the vehicle.

Also consider this, it's against the law to have possession of a gun if your BAC is over .02, it's NOT against the law to be NEAR a gun with a BAC over .02. The difference COULD be if the gun were in a holster on HIS belt, then the argument could be made that HE's in possession.

Is there more to the story, is this an actual occurence?

It's hypothetical.
 

xmanhockey7

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Opinion No. 7136 July 30, 2003
CONCEALED WEAPONS:
FIREARMS:
CRIMINAL LAW:
Carrying of a pistol in a motor vehicle
FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011
A person licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a motor vehicle in which a pistol has been left that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle.
A person who is not licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a vehicle in which a pistol has been left that is lawfully contained and that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle, only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon, a determination that depends on the facts of each case.
Honorable Scott Shackleton State Representative The Capitol Lansing, Michigan
You have asked two questions concerning the carrying of a pistol in a motor vehicle. You first ask if a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a motor vehicle in which a pistol has been left that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle.
Section 227(2) of the Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.227(2), makes it a crime to carry a pistol, whether concealed or oth- erwise, in a vehicle. Section 227(2) states, in pertinent part, as follows:
A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license. [Emphasis added.]
By its express terms, the criminal prohibition in section 227(2) does not apply to a person licensed to carry a pistol, provided that the pistol is carried in a manner or place consistent with any restriction upon that license. This conclusion is further sup- ported by section 425c(2) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, MCL 28.425c(2), which expressly authorizes a concealed pistol licensee to “[c]arry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.” Moreover, section 231a(1)(a) of the Penal Code, MCL 750.231a(1)(a), provides that the prohibition against carrying a concealed pistol in a mo- tor vehicle does not apply to a person holding a valid license to carry a concealed pistol, provided that the pistol is carried in conformity with any restrictions appearing on the license.1
The primary rule of statutory construction is to effectuate the intent of the Legislature. Wickens v Oakwood Healthcare System, 465 Mich 53, 60; 631 NW2d 686 (2001). If the language of a statute is clear and unambiguous, it is assumed the Leg- islature intended its plain meaning to be enforced as written. People v Stone, 463 Mich 558, 562; 621 NW2d 702 (2001). Here, the statutes clearly provide that a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not subject to the prohibition against carrying a pistol in a motor vehicle, regardless of whether the pistol belongs to the licensee or another person.
It is my opinion, therefore, in answer to your first question, that a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a motor vehicle in which a pistol has been left that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle.
Your second question asks if a person who is not licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a vehicle in which a pistol has been left that is lawfully contained,2 and that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle.
As previously noted, MCL 750.227(2) generally prohibits a person from carrying a concealed pistol in a motor vehicle un- less that person is licensed to carry a concealed pistol. MCL 750.231a(1) contains several exceptions to the prohibition. Sub- section (d) exempts a person “while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed
1 This analysis is limited to consideration of a violation of MCL 750.227 only and assumes that the pistol is lawfully owned, inspected, and has not been used in the commission of a crime.
2 By using the term “lawfully contained,” it is understood that the pistol left in the vehicle is either (1) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle; or (2) unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. See MCL 750.231a(1)(d) and (e).
Page 259
FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011
for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.”3 MCL 750.231a(1)(d). Subsection (e) applies to vehicles without trunks by requiring that the firearm not be readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. MCL 750.231a(1)(e).
Under the facts provided in your request, the passenger has remained in the vehicle with a properly stored pistol belonging to the driver. Under these facts, the exceptions contained in MCL 750.231a(d) and (e) are inapplicable since the passenger is not “transporting” the firearm. “To transport is to convey from one place or station to another...” People v Al-Saiegh, 244 Mich App 391, 399; 625 NW2d 419 (2001).
Nonetheless, a violation of MCL 750.227(2) must be proven by evidence of the following: (1) that a weapon is present in a vehicle operated or occupied by the defendant; (2) that the defendant knew or was aware of its presence; and (3) that the defen- dant was “carrying” the weapon. People v Courier, 122 Mich App 88; 322 NW2d 421 (1982), citing People v Butler, 414 Mich 377; 319 NW2d 540 (1982). “Carrying” is an essential element that must be proven to establish a violation of the prohibition in section 227(2) and may not automatically be inferred from evidence that the defendant had knowledge that the weapon was present in the vehicle. People v Emery, 150 Mich App 657; 667; 389 NW2d 472 (1986).
The element of “carrying” depends on the particular facts of each case. It cannot be stated, as a definitive matter of law, what conduct constitutes carrying for the purposes of section 227(2). Nevertheless, Michigan courts have articulated several factors to be considered in resolving whether the essential element of “carrying” a weapon in a vehicle has been established. Factors that have been considered include: (1) the defendant’s awareness of the weapon; (2) the accessibility or proximity of the weapon to the defendant; (3) the defendant’s possession of items which connect him to the weapon, such as ammunition; (4) the defendant’s ownership or operation of the vehicle; and (5) the length of time during which the defendant drove or occupied the vehicle. People v Emery, 150 Mich App at 667.
The fact that a pistol is lawfully contained does not necessarily exempt a person from possible prosecution under section 227(2). See, for example, People v Wilson, 2001 Mich App LEXIS 1144 (unpublished), in which the Court of Appeals held that the defendant was subject to prosecution under section 227(2), notwithstanding that the pistol was locked in the truck of a vehicle.
It is my opinion, therefore, in answer to your second question, that a person who is not licensed to carry a concealed pistol may lawfully occupy a vehicle in which a pistol has been left that is lawfully contained and that belongs to another person who has exited the vehicle, only if the occupant is not carrying the weapon, a determination that depends on the facts of each case.
MIKE COX Attorney General

Closest thing I could find that might help the legality of this.
 

Venator

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Closest thing I could find that might help the legality of this.

Well not really relevant to the scenario. This AG opinion is about leaving a handgun in a car with someone that doesn't have a CPL. In that case the gun must be properly secured..unloaded...trunk...ect.

In the OP the couple both have CPLs.
 

DrTodd

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Well not really relevant to the scenario. This AG opinion is about leaving a handgun in a car with someone that doesn't have a CPL. In that case the gun must be properly secured..unloaded...trunk...ect.

In the OP the couple both have CPLs.

Exactly. If you change the particular "facts" regarding this scenario, you have changed the outcome. Since both have a CPL, the only way that it would be an issue in this scenario is if possession, either actual or constructive, could be proven to be illegal. In my opinion, what would be easier for a LEO to sustain charges for would be if one of the two did not have a CPL... especially if the person with the CPL had a blood-alcohol level, which in a sense negates the ability of the CPL holder to possess within the vehicle according to the terms of the license.
 
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DrTodd

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I think that's the point, the passenger (husband) is NOT in possession, therefore no requirement to report or ID.

Consider this, If the vehicle is registered to the husband, but the wife is driving, who's in possession of the vehicle? If she's in possession of the vehicle, she's in possession of the contents, INCLUDING the weapons since she has a CPL.

Not exactly. It has been held in a number of cases that a pistol found in a vehicle, within which there is more than one person, could be decided in such a way that everyone,or any one person, can be charged with possession. As the AG opinion states, though, in the process of determining possession, weight is given to factors such as knowledge of its presence, possession of ammunition usable in the firearm, ownership of vehicle, etc. The term "possession" is not a notion that is clearly defined, rather it is more dependant upon factors which are individually weighted by a jury to decide possession.
 

kubel

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It would help their case if she disclosed that she is in possession like she's supposed to do. If she didn't disclose, she could be busted for not disclosing or he could be busted for possession under the influence.
 

Venator

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It would help their case if she disclosed that she is in possession like she's supposed to do. If she didn't disclose, she could be busted for not disclosing or he could be busted for possession under the influence.

The wife does disclose as required by law. From the OP: The couple gets pulled over and the LEO approaches driver side and the wife states she has a CPL and has guns in the console.

 
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Nexela

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This makes my head hurt.

The husband shouldn't disclose that he has a cpl since both requirements for disclosure are not true as the law is written.

Has a CPL AND is carrying a concealed pistol (or words to that effect)

Since we do not now for certain what a cop/prosecutor will do. If he discloses it could be argued that he knowingly possessed a concealed pistol.

Of course it would be hard to argue possession since the wife admitted to possession.

Of course if it did get this far we would hope the illegal lein search on the gun would get thrown out.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
 
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NHCGRPR45

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Gotta put my .02 in on this.

Yes he's legal in not notifying. He is not in possession, no duty to notify.
Wife can claim possession since they are in the center console; operator is considered "in possession" of anything in the vehicle. CPL holders can posses anyone's legal handgun.

Did I win anything? :p

Yes sir! You are now the proud owner of a never ending pat on the back, payable by your right or left hand at anytime!:banana:
 

lil_freak_66

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figured id Email them and see what they said....here it is!

While it would be good practice for the husband to reveal he has a CPL, he is currently under no legal obligation to do so. As long as the wife is a valid CPL holder she can claim possession of the weapons whether they are registered to her or not.


Parameters: Husband and wife BOTH have CPLs.
All handguns are registered to Husband.
Two handguns are loaded and are in the center consol of car.
Assume husband has a BAL of over 0.02

Scene: Husband and wife go out to dinner. Husband has 3 alcoholic drinks (Within an hours time) with dinner. Wife does not drink alcohol. After dinner they enter the car and drive home. The wife is driving. Both guns are still loaded and in the console.

The couple gets pulled over and the LEO approaches driver side and the wife states she has a CPL and has guns in the console.

The husband does not say a word throughout the stop.

Question: Is the husband lawful in his silence?

Tpr. Carissa Horan
MSP-Lansing Post
7119 N. Canal Rd.
Lansing, MI 48913
517-322-1907
 
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HKcarrier

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What if husband has BAC of over .02 but under .08 and HE is legally driving the car... Does SHE have to disclose? Does HE?
 

lil_freak_66

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What if husband has BAC of over .02 but under .08 and HE is legally driving the car... Does SHE have to disclose? Does HE?

he would be hit with a CPL violation for carrying concealed under the influence.and probably an impaired driving id assume

her?if she did then she should specifically state that she is possessing both pistols, so that her husband may avoid a CPL violation
 

Venator

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he would be hit with a CPL violation for carrying concealed under the influence.and probably an impaired driving id assume

her?if she did then she should specifically state that she is possessing both pistols, so that her husband may avoid a CPL violation

She is carrying not him.

Maybe charged with impaired, depending on the impairment of the driver and the officer.

But that is beyond the OP topic.
 

rvd4now

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what if

1) what if she says to the cops the weapon is hers, but the husben has the gun in a holster on his person ocing. "take out the fact that he was drinking"

Now i no you cant really be ocing in a car, but a car is considered concealed. no matter if ur sidearm is sitting on the dashboard in plan view.

2) I often wonder if i placed my sidearm on the dashboard unholstered, would it be considered brandishing seeing that the car is considered concealed.
 
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stainless1911

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Wearing a holster isnt proof that he was wearing a gun, only a holster. It can provide with enough RAS to conduct a search for a firearm.

And no, having a gun on the dashboard, or otherwise visible in a car isnt brandishing. There isnt yet a clear definition of brandishing in the courts, so you fall back on the dictionary. You're not displaying it trying to make a threat, so you're good. If someone is afraid of it, then thats thier problem, if you intentionally make someone afraid of it, then its your problem.

1. to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle.

noun 2. a flourish or waving, as of a weapon.

Now, you dont have to even touch a gun to make it brandishing.

You could say to someone, "Hey, you're in my seat, move". And its not brandishing, but if you say the same words while asserting your strong site towards them, or as you sweep your covering garment aside to show your weapon, then you are brandishing.
 
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