Incident at Lynnhaven Mall on Saturday

[Tomahawk]

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You have to use your judgment. If you take your coat off in a restaurant because you are too warm and someone gets nervous, that's their problem, not yours. But if you reveal your firearm to someone you are having a verbalargument with, you are in effect trying to intimidate them in order to win the argument or shut them up. Now it's your problem.

If youfelt so threatenedby this girl that you had to reveal a firearm, why were you jawing on your cellphone with some dude for several minutes? Shouldn't you have been paying attention to the "threat"? Maybe asking your daughter to call 911 on your phone? The story you tell doesn't sound right. Showing off a gun to a mouthy teenage girl, or was she armed with a knife or something? And WHY are you still posting here after being given very sage advice to shut up and talk to a lawyer?

In general, when I carry concealed in public, I do not plan on revealing that weapon to a threatening personunless it's time to draw, and I don't ever plan on drawing unless I REALLY, REALLY have no choice.

 

[PackininVB]

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The girl wasnt my daughter, it was my girlfriend more or less. Im 23 yeras old. i know the laws and i abide by them every time. The whole point im trying to make is that after 5 minutes or more of me calmly, and i cant stress that enough, calmly asking this girl to please leave, and all she does is scream and cuss at me, not just being annoying but making a HUGE scene, and i mean big, she acted like she was on something, i mean i calmly asked her to leave for more than 5 minutes, never once did i say ANYthing mean or insulting to her, and still she continued. The girl in the kiosk (which are those things in the hallways of the mall where they always try to sell you stuff) said she was going to call security so i thought she had. I stayed on the phone so that my buddy could listen to what was going on and he can prove that i was acting calmly and was being threatened. I wasnt annoyed, i can take annoyed. I felt threatened. Aho in their right mind will keep SCREAMING and yelling at you when all you have done is ask calmly and very nicely to please leave us alone? I do admit that when she kept going on and on, and about 20 more people started to crowd around as if there was going to be a fight, the type of people who would jump in if given the chance, i felt really threatened and felt that at any minute now i could be attacked with deadly violence. I failed to mention it, but it wasnt just the one girl yelling, it started out with the two girls, the one doing most of the yelling, then it seemed a BUNCH of their friends or whatever, people of their like mind, started to crowd around, me thinking the kiosk girl called security but seeing noone at all, i was starting to wonder just what was going to happen next. I honestly felt that the girl, or someone in the crowd would try something. I feel that by law, i was in "justifyable self-defense" i must admit, i was scared. i was shaking. i talked calm and tried to remain calm, but i was really scared, there were alot of people all around, all looking to be a part of this situation. i felt that at any moment i might need to draw, and keeping it concealed would 1. slow me down, and 2. i was hoping she would see it and decide to back off. i know now that those type of people will not back down, but i cant stress enough how threatened i did feel. I dont think that posting on here will be a big deal as there were no charges and no citations, nothing. its over and i dont have to worry about it. But what if it happened to you. what if it was your girlfriend, wife, daughter, whatever there with you. we were trying to get out of there as fast as possible, but the situation was making that impossible. they would have followed us, and out of the mall who knows what they would have done. im very very glad that she didnt do anythign like pull a gun out, because i dotn ever want to have to pull mine out, but i dont want to feel like im about to be ganged up on either.

 

[PackininVB]

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Oh, and just a note, i do know most of the laws, i do know as do most of you that the cops dont really know the laws as well as they think they do, but i just ordered a VA gun laws book to carry with me, i will know the law by the book and every letter of it. i never want this to happen again.

The only thing im having a problem with is who or when do you decide that you are being threatened enough to be in justifiable self-defense in order to "brandish" your weapon?

 

[Agent6-3/8]

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PackininVB wrote:

The only thing im having a problem with is who or when do you decide that you are being threatened enough to be in justifiable self-defense in order to "brandish" your weapon?

I can't speak for VAlaw, but here in WV, there is no "justifiable brandishing." The only time your concealed gun becomes visible is when you're drawing it to fire. Kind of a whole hog or none sort of deal.

 

[jimwyant]

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PackininVB wrote:

The only thing im having a problem with is who or when do you decide that you are being threatened enough to be in justifiable self-defense in order to "brandish" your weapon?

I am not a lawyer, but it is my opinion that you are never justified to "brandish" your weapon unless you are fully justified in using it. In other words, unless you feel you could legally pull the trigger, you should not "brandish". My $0.02.

You said, "we were trying to get out of there as fast as possible, but the situation was making that impossible". If the situation was that intense, you should have hung up with your friend and called 911 - even if you were sure that someone else had already done so. Even if you are not in the wrong, and are not legally required to do so, sometimes the most prudent action is to retreat.

 

[PackininVB]

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The law states that it is illegal to brandish your weapon except when justifiable or excusable self-defense. Now i understand that someone pulling a gun on you give you justifiable self defense in pulling your weapon and shooting them, but when is it justifiable to simply brandish as the laws says? I feel that i was justifiable because i was being threatened to the point where i thought i was going to need to draw.

And yes maybe i should have called the police, but by having my buddy on the line he became another witness to the situation whether he was there or not he could testify as to my calmness and as to what the girls were saying.

 

[Citizen]

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PackininVB wrote:

The only thing im having a problem with is who or when do you decide that you are being threatened enough to be in justifiable self-defense in order to "brandish" your weapon?

1. NEVER solicit informationof a legal naturefrom an internet forum. Don't bother to ask. Ask to be referred or directed to sources that can help answer your question. Ask tactical questions, ask about favorite color of gun--but don't ask for legal advice.

2. Look high and lowuntilyou can confirm this repeatedly: A citizen is only authorized to use his firearm to defend against the threat of deathorgrave bodily injury to himself or other innocenthuman life.

Analysis to your situation: No threat of death or grave bodily injury= leave the firearm out of the equation. Don't touch it. Don't verbally refer to it. Don't show it.

The law has had centuries of individual cases to work out numerous legal angles and slice the nuances razor thin. You want to learn these.

Understand that the subjectoverlaps into tactical--what can/shoulda gunowner do in a given situation. Read up on good authors onthe subject.The type of incident you experiencedis well covered in the armed self-defense literature.

Now please stop asking us to do your legal analysis for you. Ordering the book is a good start to taking responsibility foryour own knowledge. As I mentioned earlier, this subject is dangerous. You absolutely do not want to rely on the opinions of others unless you know the personto bevery knowledgeable--attorneys, top-tier defensive firearms experts, etc. Andeven then evaluate their information before you decide to adopt it.

 

[Desertdoc]

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Now i was going to stay out of this post but it seems to keep going. 1st.. you said that your command was call which makes me think that your in the Navy. I dont see how one of our military men would feel threatened by a couple of "crazy females" yelling at him. You should be trained to handle yourself better in this kinda of predicament. 2nd.. You have stated that you asked them to leave over and over. If it was that big of a scene and you where that worried... your first reaction should be to retreat to safer ground. You should never let yourself get cornered by anyone. I am a combat vet. and i have always been trained to keep an eye out on the whole situation. If it starts to get hairy then your first duty is to remove yourself and loved ones from the "hot zone". By showing your firearm not only did you show all the cards that you were holding (if you may need it) but you potently caused a flare up in your problems. You flat out blew this ordeal so please learn from it. Dont be so quick to stand your ground and show your gun. It could get you killed! Its always better to walk away from a problem and be alive to fight another day.

Im not surprised that your not being charged since it isnt worth most cops time when it comes to the paper work. Hell all they needed to do is call your OIC (officer in charge) and they normally take care of all the little stuff for them. I am surprised that your command isn't nailing you though. Most commands dont like it when there sailors are involved in a civilian matter that might make the entire service look bad.

 

[badmonkey]

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Desertdoc wrote:

If it was that big of a scene and you where that worried... your first reaction should be to retreat to safer ground.

Well said. If you were actually in fear for your life, you would not of tried to stick it out in the argument. You would've simply left the area. Revealing your sidearm to win an argument, to me (IANAL), would be brandishing. If you were OC to begin with then it would be different but you purposly showed your firearm for purposes of stopping the argument. My 0.02.

 

[kparker]

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This is not legal advice, just practical: you urgently need some additional training in the justifiable use of force for self-defence, in the state where you live.

The fact that:

1. you kept "asking" these girls to leave a public venue, simply because you were having an argument with them (regardless of who started it)
2. it apparently never occured to you to defuse things by simply leaving
3. you think "your buddy" on the other end of a cell call would be of more usefulness than a police officer on the scene
4. you don't understand the seriousness of introducing of a firearm into a situation that (according to your description) was merely a verbal argument
5. apparently don't know what "brandishing" means in state law

all point to the same conclusion--legally, conceptually, and factually, you are quite unprepared for the ramifications of carrying a firearm. I'd get some training to fill these gaps asap, if I were you.

 

[DT4E31]

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Well here are my two cents worth. Its a public mall and you can't ask someone to leave, conversely, someone can't ask you to leave either.
If someone is arguing with you irrationally, be the rational one and walk away.
If they follow you, THEN, you may have a leg to stand on as far as feeling threatened.
Finally, after about 2 mintues I would have called 911 or mall security and let them handle the wacko girls. What is worse in the mind of those who are responding, a guy brandishing a firearm or some annoying girls talking crap?
those girls were completely wrong, and you let them out of it by making a worse mistake. Just my opinion:banghead:

 

[rabbit994]

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Sigh.... I've said it before and I'll say it again. Outside what the law says, you should NEVER transition to open carry from concealed carry while in any sort of argument unless your about to clear leather. From what you described, there was no reason to brandish your weapon. In VA, you may use deadly force for self defense when extreme physical harm, deadly harm or sexual harm is going to come to you. Yoy may stand your ground UNLESS you were part of initial encounter.

In any case, your would have a hell of a time proving that girl of most likely less physical strength then you a male of 23 years old is threating you physically unless she has a weapon of some sort or is in massive pack.

 

[Jersey Ron]

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PackininVB, I'm not going to "spank" you like my other fellow OC'ers and CC'ers but somewhere on this website is an altercation that took place in a pizza shop. A young man was on a cell phone when a very, very, very rude, belligerent, downrightdisgusting female verbally and physically abused him. Not only did she abuse him but she evenSPIT on an employee behind the counter. To top this off, her boyfriend, every bit of 6'0,295lbs came in and beat himpractically to death and then robbed him.If there was any reason for brandishing, pulling and even shooting someone this WAS THE TIME!I guess the point I'm trying to make is I UNDERSTAND where you are coming from. I didn't say I agree BUT I do understand only when you said you were surrounded by other individuals who MAY have been waiting to attack at the right moment. Your situation didn't quite reach that point, however, it could have easily turned into your "beatdown" as well.

Dude, I hate to say it but the best thing to have done was just leave at the first sign of problems. I know it's not fair and I hate "bending over backwards" for degenerates BUT it's just not worth the aggravation. I know it sucks but it's just like the known fact that we have to obey the law when criminals don't. Dude, next time just hug your lady, give her a kiss and walk into the sunset or go to another kyosk or whatever they're called.



Jersey

 

[Shotgun]

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I understand your situation.Having heard only your side of the confrontation and assuming it's accurate I wouldn't consider you to have done anything illegal, but I consider it inadvisable for both legal and tactical reasons. Legally, you could have problems explaining why you introduced a weapon into an equation that, up that that point, only involved a verbal dispute.

My advice is that when you're weapon is concealed don't show it until you're actuallydrawing with the intention to use it. The purpose of concealed carry is so others don't SEE that you're armed. Why tip them off? Tactically, it's the same principle used in a knife fighting-- you don't want them to see it until it's ripping into them. The element of surprise has a sound tactical basis to it. Don't let verbal aggression prompt you to compromise your position. When that girl saw your gun she knew damn well you could notjust shoot her and she took advantage of the situation to escalate her verbal attack.

 

[molonlabetn]

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I read your excerpt a couple of times... I was trying to find any reference to the girlsmaking a physical threat to you. They were in the wrong, I have no doubt. But they did nothing to make you fear for your well-being (other than your pride).

Because of that very fact, your gun should NEVER have come into play in that situation, in ANY way. Especially in the way that you did.

You should have turned around and walked away. It was an un-winnable argument. And, you using the threat of violence totry and subdue the girls was stupid. (yes, showing them that you were armed was very much a threat of violence, at least inthat you werewilling to participate in it). There isn't asoul on this planet who is worth shooting because they want to engage you in a childish argument, don't ever pretend or suggest that you would. You transitioning from CC to OC during that encounter was not a coincidence, and it was not insignificant.

You are lucky that you are not in jail. Brandishing, by definition, is presenting an object in a threatening manner, regardless of the specific wording used. You brandished. It was no different than verbally saying "I have a gun, so don't argue with me because I have the power to shoot you".

If you cannot present enough reasonto an argument to get your point across, or if the other party simply won't listen. Walk away. RUN away! And get security yourself...

Before you acted like a fool, they could have helped you.

Sorry for being harsh, but please don't ever solve a problem like that... Unless it's a problem that intends to really hurt or kill you. And then, don't bother posturing.

molonlabetn

 

[PackininVB]

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molonlabetn, These girls were acting like they wanted to fight. they took their coats off, threw their bags on the floor, and there were about 20 people standing around like they wanted to join in. I really did feel that at any moment i was about to be jumped. the only thing im sure that saved me was when security finally came and pushed them away. The cops said that they couldnt be there right away because something else was going on and they only came because someone said something about a gun. Had i not shown it, security might not have been there in time and i might have been jumped by 20 or so people and then had been forced to draw. I wanted to get away but my girl was trying to pay her cell phone bill and the girl in the kiosk was paying more attention to what was going on than trying to get us on our way. The initial yelling and screaming happened so fast that i didnt hardly know what was going on or why. I figured they would leave soon but didnt. When it got to the point where i felt like i was going to be jumped even though i did nothing but ask nicely for the girls to leave, i brandished my weapon hoping for them to change their mind. I didnt do it in a manner where i was showing off or anything, i wasnt even turned so they could see it really, i just pushed my coat back a bit, expecting the worst and they ended up seeing it when i turned back and asked them to leave for the umpteenth time. One of them or someone in the crowd could definately have had a weapon and everyone was acting like something bigger was about to happen when security came.

The whole thing is i felt like i was being abused, threatened, and verbally assaulted, and the cops did nothing but see that i had a weapon and figured i was the agressor. They didnt even question the girls, just moved them away at which point they ran out of the mall. i just feel that anyone who at any moment might have to defend themselves against bodily harm shouldnt be made to feel like a criminal.

 

[psmartin]

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Maybe we all sound like a broken record, I can't imagine any scenerio arising from a "girl-fight" which requires brandishing a weapon. Brandishing in hopes of "changing peoples mind" is exactly what causes a lot of shootouts among those with a short-temper, &/or low IQ.

Let's look at the bright side: You don't have to go to Lynnhaven Mall for 5 years(make it 10 years, think of the money you're going to the saving) and you didn't have to spend $10,000 on an attorney to weasel your way out of a brandishing charge.

It's much better for you to be hearing from us(and.. Welcome to Opencarry.org -- we welcome everyone this way) than your attorney across the table clocking you at $190 per hour.

I live in the Richmond area -- but to all the VA-Beach OC'ers.. OC'Meetups at the Lynnhaven Mall are OFF LIMITS.. --heheh -- I couldn't resist.

PackininVB wrote:

molonlabetn, These girls were acting like they wanted to fight. they took their coats off, threw their bags on the floor, and there were about 20 people standing around like they wanted to join in. I really did feel that at any moment i was about to be jumped. the only thing im sure that saved me was when security finally came and pushed them away. The cops said that they couldnt be there right away because something else was going on and they only came because someone said something about a gun. Had i not shown it, security might not have been there in time and i might have been jumped by 20 or so people and then had been forced to draw. I wanted to get away but my girl was trying to pay her cell phone bill and the girl in the kiosk was paying more attention to what was going on than trying to get us on our way. The initial yelling and screaming happened so fast that i didnt hardly know what was going on or why. I figured they would leave soon but didnt. When it got to the point where i felt like i was going to be jumped even though i did nothing but ask nicely for the girls to leave, i brandished my weapon hoping for them to change their mind. I didnt do it in a manner where i was showing off or anything, i wasnt even turned so they could see it really, i just pushed my coat back a bit, expecting the worst and they ended up seeing it when i turned back and asked them to leave for the umpteenth time. One of them or someone in the crowd could definately have had a weapon and everyone was acting like something bigger was about to happen when security came.

The whole thing is i felt like i was being abused, threatened, and verbally assaulted, and the cops did nothing but see that i had a weapon and figured i was the agressor. They didnt even question the girls, just moved them away at which point they ran out of the mall. i just feel that anyone who at any moment might have to defend themselves against bodily harm shouldnt be made to feel like a criminal.

 

[Tomahawk]

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PackininVB wrote:

molonlabetn, These girls were acting like they wanted to fight. they took their coats off, threw their bags on the floor, and there were about 20 people standing around like they wanted to join in. I really did feel that at any moment i was about to be jumped. the only thing im sure that saved me was when security finally came and pushed them away. The cops said that they couldnt be there right away because something else was going on and they only came because someone said something about a gun. Had i not shown it, security might not have been there in time and i might have been jumped by 20 or so people and then had been forced to draw. I wanted to get away but my girl was trying to pay her cell phone bill and the girl in the kiosk was paying more attention to what was going on than trying to get us on our way. The initial yelling and screaming happened so fast that i didnt hardly know what was going on or why. I figured they would leave soon but didnt. When it got to the point where i felt like i was going to be jumped even though i did nothing but ask nicely for the girls to leave, i brandished my weapon hoping for them to change their mind. I didnt do it in a manner where i was showing off or anything, i wasnt even turned so they could see it really, i just pushed my coat back a bit, expecting the worst and they ended up seeing it when i turned back and asked them to leave for the umpteenth time. One of them or someone in the crowd could definately have had a weapon and everyone was acting like something bigger was about to happen when security came.

The whole thing is i felt like i was being abused, threatened, and verbally assaulted, and the cops did nothing but see that i had a weapon and figured i was the agressor. They didnt even question the girls, just moved them away at which point they ran out of the mall. i just feel that anyone who at any moment might have to defend themselves against bodily harm shouldnt be made to feel like a criminal.

I understand you feel like you're getting a raw deal, because the mouthy girl didn't get into trouble and you did (almost, anyway). That's too bad, though. Life isn't fair. Had you not revealed your weapon, hung up and called the police, while backing away as fast as possible, the big mouth might have been the one to get a talking to by the cops. You should have told your girl to come back and pay the bill later. Learn to take your lumps and stay out of trouble, for god's sake. Do what the other poster said and get some training in use of force and handling of situations like this. When you're carrying a gun, you have to be able to walk away from any argument that looks like it might get out of control.

Also, note that in your last post you admitted to brandishing. Not a good idea, and it goes back to what was said earlier: if you talk to anyone, talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of gun guys on the internet.

 

[danbus]

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You having a concealed gun GIVES you the excuse to walk away.

Me, being a black man with a gun, would have gotten kicked out quick riki tic, just for OCing there. That's WHY I OC EVERYWHERE I can (within the law). I am one to avoid confrontations, but now that I OC, it gives me the added "bonus" of avoiding or moving away from the confrontation. That way, I have done "everything" I could do to avoid shooting some idiot.

You know what, we are going to have to hang out sometime. Please if you can come to the range get together on Wed.

 

[bayboy42]

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