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Interesting twist on OC'ers baiting police and recording the event

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
"Public office" is different than being a certified peace officer/LEO. QI does not extend to the DMV employee or the city employed trash collector.

LE, at any level, anywhere, has not given a single indication that they give a rats rear end about the financial consequences a citizen experiences when LE unlawfully and likely illegally violates a citizen's rights.

Your defense of LE, irrational so it seems, is laudable and completely misplaced. Any LEO can come here and defend himself and his actions.

It is far easier to sue a city employee for their good faith mistakes than a LEO. So much so that a mere policy violation that results in a violation of the citizen's rights can be used to sue the bureaucrat. Juries are not typically sympathetic to bureaucrats but irrationally cling to the "all cops are good and have a tough job" image that LE continually rams down the throats of the citizenry.

If there were fewer LEOs on the street I'm not sure that the doom and gloom that some predict would manifest. Just as blood running in the streets did not occur when CCW is permitted. heck, Arizona is about as close to where they were in the 1880's regarding guns and I have not heard of any gun fights at high noon happening.

Kentucky has had unrestricted OC before we even gained statehood. We have no problems with this right, and we never will. The reason the crime rate is so high is because criminals do not fear cops or the law. The majority of criminals in prison have stated they are more afraid of a citizen with the means to protect themself than a cop with a belt full of gear. We have become so lax regarding violent offenders that they have no fear of the system. If we placed the responsibility of protection and justice back in the hands of the citizenry, we would watch violent crime reduce greatly! Crime didn't start obtaining these levels until we stripped these rights from the citizens.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Do you mean this Seattle PD? Anyway, your claims regarding SPD with respect to Baltimore, Chicago, New York, and LA may very well be true.

I have read that report, It's a sham. The DoJ made that whole thing up after 1 well publicized officer involved shooting. lawyers at the Federal Justice department are political vultures, not the guardians of civil liberties they claim to be.

Some problems with the report for instance, they included instances of verbal de-escalation as excessive force, the included an instance in which a girl was justifiably punched by an officer as she was assaulting him.

They make the claim of discriminatory policing, which is SOP for the feds, there isn't that many norwiegan street gangs roaming seattle so mexicans and blacks being arrested more often is not evidence of any wrongdoing by the department. I'm certain if I combed police reports from the biggest city in each of the 50 states I honestly believe Seattle would rank near the bottom in terms of excessive force, and institutionalized corruption is virtually non-existent
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
So you support victimless crimes and public extortion. That is wonderful to know. We will never see eye to eye on things for sure.

So if a cop claims you're speeding just pay the ticket. I guess cops are not so corrupt after all in your mind.

If the officer is lying about you speeding that's one thing. If you are ACTUALLY speeding and given a ticket then shut up and pay it like everyone else does. speeding is not a victimless crime, at least 1 person I graduated high school with died when he walking on the side of a county road and some jackass decided the 45mph limit didn't apply to them. why you go tell that family how victimless that was, if the car was obeying the speed limit the police concluded at the time brakes were applied the vehicle would've come to stop before killing my senior classmate. your saying it would be ok to 65 on that road in your opinion. that law is not a "victimless crime" and enforcing it is not "extortion".
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
If the officer is lying about you speeding that's one thing. If you are ACTUALLY speeding and given a ticket then shut up and pay it like everyone else does. speeding is not a victimless crime, at least 1 person I graduated high school with died when he walking on the side of a county road and some jackass decided the 45mph limit didn't apply to them. why you go tell that family how victimless that was, if the car was obeying the speed limit the police concluded at the time brakes were applied the vehicle would've come to stop before killing my senior classmate. your saying it would be ok to 65 on that road in your opinion. that law is not a "victimless crime" and enforcing it is not "extortion".

The crime you describe is vehicular homicide.

Speeding in and of itself is not a crime.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
The crime you describe is vehicular homicide.

Speeding in and of itself is not a crime.

And if he had decided to obey the little number on the sign friend would still be alive and the driver would not be in prison. I'd rather you be "extorted" by an officer just enforcing the lawful edicts of the public works department then someone getting splattered.

this is exactly what I hate about libertarians, you basically seem to believe its your right to do whatever you want and safety of others be damned. if you commited a vehicular homicide you'd probably say it was the pedestrians fault because he didn't get out of the way when you were doing 70 on a county road and it was your right to drive as fast as you want anyway.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I have read that report, It's a sham. The DoJ made that whole thing up after 1 well publicized officer involved shooting. lawyers at the Federal Justice department are political vultures, not the guardians of civil liberties they claim to be.

Some problems with the report for instance, they included instances of verbal de-escalation as excessive force, the included an instance in which a girl was justifiably punched by an officer as she was assaulting him.

They make the claim of discriminatory policing, which is SOP for the feds, there isn't that many norwiegan street gangs roaming seattle so mexicans and blacks being arrested more often is not evidence of any wrongdoing by the department. I'm certain if I combed police reports from the biggest city in each of the 50 states I honestly believe Seattle would rank near the bottom in terms of excessive force, and institutionalized corruption is virtually non-existent
The DoJ report is based on SPD's use of force reports. This lends credibility to their findings.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
And if he had decided to obey the little number on the sign friend would still be alive and the driver would not be in prison. I'd rather you be "extorted" by an officer just enforcing the lawful edicts of the public works department then someone getting splattered.

this is exactly what I hate about libertarians, you basically seem to believe its your right to do whatever you want and safety of others be damned. if you committed a vehicular homicide you'd probably say it was the pedestrians fault because he didn't get out of the way when you were doing 70 on a county road and it was your right to drive as fast as you want anyway.

The speed limits are arbitrary anyways. If you look at the engineering reports of the different roads the speed limits and the engineering reports don't match.

Instead of blaming the pedestrian like you would do. Why not blame the road designer for not making the shoulders wide enough to walk along?
I've walked along too many roads that were not designed to allow pedestrians the safe use of the road way. BTW is this just one more bit of proof that a license cannot be required to use your automobile on the road ways. Unless you like the logic that every handgun has a 5,000dollar transfer tax. Hey you can still own what ever handgun you want because it's your right to do so. Not apples to oranges either.

The other thing is that you make too many assumptions about me and my beliefs. Yet you only offer the 'solution' that has proven to not work in the first place. So did having a posted speed limit save the life of your friend/family member? No it didn't.

I didn't say we should not have posted speed limits. However they should not be used for extorting money from people. If you're speeding and you kill someone it should be a higher degree of crime. It's crystal clear that those committing extortion are not preventing any crimes. As it is currently, in the world that you're supporting, if I hit someone (accidentally) when I am going the posted speed limit the punishment is the same as if I was speeding. However there should not be speeding tickets but if you're doing 20 over and you kill someone the crime and punishment should be more severe.

Now if speeding is such a big safety concern to you then would allow cops to speed to catch a stolen car?

I believe "the right of way" should go like this; pedestrian, horse back rider, bicyclist, animal drawn cart, personal automobile, and then motor vehicle.

I've gone over 100mph without risking peoples lives. The road in front of my grandparents old house had a speed limit of 45 and you could ride horses into town along it now it's 35 and it scary to even walk it.

Some idiot text messaging and going the speed limit is more dangerous than the person who is paying attention to the road and going 15 over.
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
The DoJ report is based on SPD's use of force reports. This lends credibility to their findings.

based ona bunch a civilian federal lawyers view of what constitutes unreasonable force. The study was conducted with a specific result in mind. How you ever heard of DoJ investigating a department only to say "oops, sorry our bad you never did anything wrong"? I don't trust the DoJ. Especially since no one has yet been prosecuted for fast and furious.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
The speed limits are arbitrary anyways so break them if you want, don't gripe about extortion when you get caught. If you look at the engineering reports of the different roads the speed limits and the engineering reports don't match.

Instead of blaming the pedestrian like you would doI did not say that, go back up and read the full quote in context. Why not blame the road designer for not making the shoulders wide enough to walk along?
I've walked along too many roads that were not designed to allow pedestrians the safe use of the road way. BTW is this just one more bit of proof that a license cannot be required to use your automobile on the road ways You've gotta be pulling my leg. Unless you like the logic that every handgun has a 5,000dollar transfer tax. Hey you can still own what ever handgun you want because it's your right to do so. Not apples to oranges either. How is that related to a license? you don't need a license to own a car, you just need a title, you pay for the car then sales tax at the DMV, it works remarkably similiar to handguns except handguns don't come with titles

The other thing is that you make too many assumptions about me and my beliefs. Yet you only offer the 'solution' that has proven to not work in the first place. So did having a posted speed limit save the life of your friend/family member? No it didn't. Laws don't always prevent crime, there can't be a cop on every block, but the speed law allows for pre-emptive enforcement of reckless people.

I didn't say we should not have posted speed limits. However they should not be used for extorting money from people.Pulling someone over for speeding is not extortion, extortion would be if they pull you over, find drugs and cash and promise they'll arrest you if you don't hand them the cash, THAT'S extortion. writing a citation because someone was exceeding a speed limit is not extortion, it's enforcement If you're speeding and you kill someone it should be a higher degree of crime. It's crystal clear that those committing extortion are not preventing any crimes In your opinion, I've noticed people drive slower in areas where the police are known to conduct speed traps.. As it is currently, in the world that you're supporting, if I hit someone (accidentally) when I am going the posted speed limit the punishment is the same as if I was speeding No you'd be punished for vehicular manslaughter, but speeding laws mean you can be prosecuted for speeding before someone gets hit. However there should not be speeding tickets I get that you'd rather drive as fast as you want then pay 125 bucks for being a danger to others, that's not a valid argument however but if you're doing 20 over and you kill someone the crime and punishment should be more severe.

Now if speeding is such a big safety concern to you then would allow cops to speed to catch a stolen car? Becuase someone who steals a car has committed a felony and may be trying to escape from the scene of other felonies, in that case public safety is best served apprehending the offender

I believe "the right of way" should go like this; pedestrian, horse back rider, bicyclist, animal drawn cart, personal automobile, and then motor vehicle.

I've gone over 100mph without risking peoples lives. The road in front of my grandparents old house had a speed limit of 45 and you could ride horses into town along it now it's 35 and it scary to even walk it.

Some idiot text messaging and going the speed limit And I'll bet you believe people have the right to do that too is more dangerous than the person who is paying attention to the road and going 15 over on the freeway maybe, 15 over on a city arterial or street is definitely reckless.

My responses in Bold
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
based ona bunch a civilian federal lawyers view of what constitutes unreasonable force. The study was conducted with a specific result in mind. How you ever heard of DoJ investigating a department only to say "oops, sorry our bad you never did anything wrong"? I don't trust the DoJ. Especially since no one has yet been prosecuted for fast and furious.

Civilian Federal lawyers? WTH?
Who do you want them to use, Non-civilian Military Lawyers? Maybe you want to explain that a little, the concept seems unclear.
Who do you think should be in charge of deciding what is "reasonable force", the guys who are accused of using unreasonable force?
I imagine that the DoJ doesn't even get involved until there are numerous, substantiated complaints.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Civilian Federal lawyers? WTH?
Who do you want them to use, Non-civilian Military Lawyers? Maybe you want to explain that a little, the concept seems unclear.
Who do you think should be in charge of deciding what is "reasonable force", the guys who are accused of using unreasonable force?
I imagine that the DoJ doesn't even get involved until there are numerous, substantiated complaints.

If it were the FBI investigating SPD I'd be more appreciative of the result. As I have said, I believe that the DoJ cooked the books on what they considered "excessive force"

for instance this is one store related by the DoJ report

Dept of Justice report said:
For example, in one incident, two officers went to the home of a man that they knew was
experiencing a mental health crisis. The officers chose not to enlist the assistance of the Crisis
Intervention Team (“CIT”), which would have had the requisite expertise for handling an
individual experiencing distress. In addition, the individual’s acute mental state was apparent
from the outset of the contact. When the man answered the door, his eyes were bulging and he
appeared disoriented. The officers explained to him that he was under arrest for an outstanding
warrant, and one officer grabbed the man’s left arm in an attempt to handcuff him. The man
immediately pulled away and refused to cooperate. In response, one officer swept the man’s left
leg with his foot and “placed him on the ground” to gain leverage. The officer then got on top of
the man’s body. After the man attempted to get up several times, the officer deployed his
Electronically Controlled Weapon (“ECW,” a.k.a. TASER) once into the man’s left leg, and
administered two additional ECW cycles on the man’s upper back. At this point, the man began
to crawl down the hallway, with both officers on top of his back. One officer delivered two
strikes to the man’s face with his right elbow because he reportedly feared that the man was
trying to grab his firearm. The second officer struck the man several times in the back and hip
area with a closed fist, and kneed him in the lower back. In the course of this incident, the man
began to vomit, stopped breathing, and suffered a brain injury that has since left him
hospitalized. Had the CIT team been used, or had the officers not escalated the situation, this
outcome could have been averted.

Several things DoJ's report likely didn't include

Mentally ill people are incredibly violent when challenged, Tasers may not have an incapacitating effect on such people, the man was struck in the face because he may have been trying to reach for the officer's weapon. long times readers of the Ayoob Files may recall how a mentally ill subject going against two police officers in Louisiana indeed seized an officers weapon while they were trying to cuff him and killed her with one shot. (Baton Rouge Louisiana)

And unmentioned on the report is how medical aid was immediately summoned after the vomiting, mentally ill people are dangerous, should the officers have called CIT? probably, but that is irrelevant to that use of force being excessive. with some of the characters you see wandering downtown Seattle I honestly believe that guy was being a handful and needed some force to be able to arrest. now an FBI agent would have some law enforcement understanding and be better able to judge that particular use of force. Personally I think DoJ should contract a police agency from a city well outside the region who had no vested interest in SPD to conduct the investigation. Or have the FBI conduct these reports.

And I know exactly why the DoJ investigated SPD, it has everything to do of the shooting of a homeless man named John T Williams by police officer. Williams was armed only with a knife and was outside the view of the cars dash camera when shot, so there was (and still is) alot of controversy involving said shooting. that is the reason why DoJ opened the investigation, becuase after inquest boards and the King County prosecutor Dan Satterberg couldn't find PC to indict the officer of a crime so here comes the DoJ "the guardians of people's civil rights" swooping in to city's carrion like the political vultures they are.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Oh yeah, Seattle... You mean Officer, pardon, I mean former officer Ian Birk? Now There's a piece of work.
110112_ian_birk1.jpg
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
So you like big government and I don't. We will never agree so, why don't you answer ever question a cops asks you?

You only like limited freedom so long as it feels good.

No, you and I have a truly different definition on what qualifies as freedom. I personally believe that States and locales have the right to pass laws for everyone's benefit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights granted in the constitution. I'm yet to read the section of the bill of rights saying you have a right to not be cited for driving 100 mph and drive without a license. it's not in there.

It really seems to me that you think their should really be no laws at all. or that laws should be so narrowly written that someone has to die before police can do anything in your mind. why don't you sit and explain exactly what your philosophy on government is?
 

Freedom1Man

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Greater Eastside Washington
No, you and I have a truly different definition on what qualifies as freedom. I personally believe that States and locales have the right to pass laws for everyone's benefit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights granted in the constitution. I'm yet to read the section of the bill of rights saying you have a right to not be cited for driving 100 mph and drive without a license. it's not in there.

It really seems to me that you think their should really be no laws at all. or that laws should be so narrowly written that someone has to die before police can do anything in your mind. why don't you sit and explain exactly what your philosophy on government is?

So you have now proven your ignorance.

The constitution does not grant rights.
The bill of rights does not grant rights either.

So you have to show where in the constitutions it says the government CAN do those things you have listed.

Life, liberty (part of the liberty is the right to travel and use your property the way it was intended so long as you don't harm anyone), and the pursuit of happiness.

Game over. You lose.

Side note, Dan Wesson revolvers are much better than Smith and Wesson revolvers.
Freedom Arms revolvers are better still.
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
So you have now proven your ignorance.

The constitution does not grant rights.
The bill of rights does not grant rights either. Semantic argument, and what I said is the de facto truth anyway, if the rights were "natural" no one would have to live in tyranny. Rights are granted becuase they are set forth in law. Specifically a constitution to avoid easy tampering, but set forth in written law none the less

So you have to show where in the constitutions it says the government CAN do those things you have listed. Traffic codes are set by states, so the 10th amendment.

Life, liberty (part of the liberty is the right to travel and use your property the way it was intended so long as you don't harm anyone), and the pursuit of happiness. Or are reasonably likely to endanger others, if you're out firing shots wildly in the air should the cops have to wait until somebody gets hit before they can stop you?

Game over. You lose. Game over, you lose

Side note, Dan Wesson revolvers are much better than Smith and Wesson revolvers. In your wildest dreams
Freedom Arms revolvers are better still.

my answers in bold
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
my answers in bold

Semantics is the study of word use.

Oh and Dan Wesson revolvers have been more thoroughly tested than Smith and Wesson.

Just ask those who were in the IHMSA.

Granting and protecting are far from being the same thing.

States don't have the right to travel.

Also I noticed that you're in the same state I am. Washington was never properly admitted to the union. So your 10th amendment argument falls short.

Oh and the Washington state constitution did not grant the state the power to set speed limits.... Neither the 1878 (the one in congressional record) or the 1889 (the de facto one) constitutions grant the state such powers.

Edit for cases:
Since I figure you might have a little bit of ability to understand them

"...Based upon the fundamental ground that the sovereign state has the plenary control of the streets and highways in the exercise of its police power (see police power, infra.), may absolutely prohibit the use of the streets as a place for the prosecution of a private business for gain. They all recognize the fundamental distinction between the ordinary Right of the Citizen to use the streets in the usual way and the use of the streets as a place of business or a main instrumentality of business for private gain. The former is a common Right, the latter is an extraordinary use. As to the former the legislative power is confined to regulation, as to the latter it is plenary and extends even to absolute prohibition. Since the use of the streets by a common carrier in the prosecution of its business as such is not a right but a mere license of privilege." Hadfield vs. Lundin, 98 Wash 657l, 168, p.516.

Since that one happened here in Wash.

"The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by horse drawn carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city can prohibit or permit at will, but a common Right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." [emphasis added] Thompson vs. Smith, 154 SE 579.

So we can see that a Citizen has a Right to travel upon the public highways by automobile and the Citizen cannot be rightfully deprived of his Liberty. So where does the misconception that the use of the public road is always and only a privilege come from?

"...For while a Citizen has the Right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that Right does not extend to the use of the highways, either in whole or in part, as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose no person has a vested right to use the highways of the state, but is a privilege or a license which the legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion." State vs. Johnson, 243 P. 1073; Hadfield, supra; Cummins vs. Homes, 155 P. 171; Packard vs. Banton, 44 S.Ct. 256; and other cases too numerous to mention.



That blows away your arguments. I laugh.
 
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