Is a Airsoft Gun a Gun?

[American Boy With a Gun]

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Just outta curiosity....how is there a 103.33% of voters on this?

 

[Venator]

imported post

American Boy With a Gun wrote:

Just outta curiosity....how is there a 103.33% of voters on this?

computer program rounding.

 

[Taurus850CIA]

imported post

Venator wrote:

American Boy With a Gun wrote:

Just outta curiosity....how is there a 103.33% of voters on this?

computer program rounding.

...or the fact that there are 10 yes votes, and 22 no votes, for a total of... 31?? Maybe one of the voters was banned, and isn't counted in the total?

eta: to fix dyslexia...

 

[DrTodd]

imported post

Airsoft dangerous? (http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1085410057206840.xml)


Fake guns are getting people in real trouble
Prosecutor says pellet pistols count as 'firearms'
Monday, 24, 2004
BY AMALIE NASH
Ann Arbor News Staff Reporter

The black plastic replica of a Glock handgun looks and feels like the weapons carried by Washtenaw County Sheriff's deputies, but it shoots plastic pellets and has a much smaller price tag.

Airsoft pistols could be an ideal device to use for simulation exercises during annual weapons training for sheriff's department personnel, Cmdr. Dave Egeler said.

But could they be violating the law by using or carrying them?

Airsoft pistols have become a legal quandary in Washtenaw County, where prosecutors have deemed them as firearms under state law and are criminally charging people caught carrying them.

But prosecutors in other Michigan counties and the State Police disagree, saying the realistic toys are just that - much like BB guns but with a slightly larger pellet made of plastic.

Until the Michigan Court of Appeals receives an airsoft pistol case or the Legislature weighs in, the local decisions apply only to Washtenaw County. But the current precedent has some parents and retailers on edge.

"We're reviewing and seriously considering obtaining those guns for training, but we're watching the current cases to make sure they don't impact our planned use of these things," Egeler said.

Legal or not?

Washtenaw County Chief Assistant Prosecutor Joseph Burke says airsoft guns qualify as firearms under Michigan law, which classifies firearms as weapons that expel a dangerous projectile larger than 0.177 caliber - the size of a BB.

The debate boils down to the term "dangerous projectile." Whether the small plastic projectile is dangerous depends on who you ask.

"We consider those a dangerous projectile, and I believe anyone who has been shot with one would also consider it a dangerous projectile," Burke said.

Circuit Court Judge David Swartz agreed with the Prosecutor's Office in a local case last year when the issue was challenged.

But Sgt. James Bennett of the State Police Executive Division in Lansing said his office has studied airsoft pistols and concluded that they don't qualify as firearms. Officials there don't believe the plastic pellet is a dangerous projectile, he said.

"At least once a week we're getting calls from police agencies and citizens asking about these," Bennett said. "Many are parents who are thinking of purchasing one for a teenage son or daughter and want to know if they're legal and what the process is."

Ann Arbor Police Detective Sgt. Richard Kinsey said he also doesn't think airsoft guns are firearms under the law.

"If you say that a firearm is anything that shoots a projectile over 0.177 caliber, a paintball gun is a firearm, a piece of PVC piping to shoot marshmallows is a firearm or a toy dart gun could be a firearm," Kinsey said. "I don't think that's the intent of the law. This is much less powerful than a BB gun."

Livingston County Chief Assistant Prosecutor Dan Garber said his office recognizes that airsoft guns can create problems. But prosecutors there aren't issuing charges since they don't think airsoft guns meet the definition for a firearm, he said.

The Oakland County Prosecutor's Office has yet to be confronted with the issue, said Jim Halushka, director of the warrants and investigations section. But the office previously said paintball guns were not considered firearms since the paintball is designed to shoot without seriously hurting anyone, Halushka said.

Criminally charged

Airsoft pistols first caught the attention of law enforcement in Ann Arbor in early 2003, when a passerby saw a man with a gun and called police.

The gun turned out to be an airsoft pistol, and 21-year-old Joseph McHugh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, a five-year felony. He was sentenced last month to 18 months of probation.

Since then, prosecutors have charged three other local men in airsoft pistol cases.

# A University of Michigan student was accused of firing an airsoft pistol from his dorm room window, striking a passing motorist in the face last month. He waived his preliminary hearing this month on charges of assault with a dangerous weapon, assault and battery and being a minor in possession of alcohol. He has a pretrial hearing June 21.

# Two Saline teenagers were charged with carrying a concealed weapon after one wore a holster carrying an airsoft gun in a Subway sandwich store in Ann Arbor. Police confiscated four airsoft guns from their car.

Jeremy Bauerle, 18, and Christopher Waters, 18, pleaded guilty earlier this month to a reduced charge of brandishing a firearm in public and will be sentenced June 10.

Bauerle's attorney, Joseph Simon of Ann Arbor, said he researched whether an airsoft gun was a firearm and agreed that it fit the definition.

"Originally the prosecutor's office was not inclined to reduce the charge, and we were pleased they revisited that and changed their viewpoint," Simon said. "The (airsoft) was never displayed in this case; it was being carried."

What sets airsoft pistols apart from paintball guns or other toy weapons is their realistic appearance, Burke said. The weapons are replicas of actual handgun models and are hard to distinguish - except for an orange tip at the end of the toy gun.

Burke said that criminal charges are being issued only when people use airsoft pistols improperly.

"All these cases are not kids playing in their back yards," Burke said. "The reason we're taking an aggressive approach is to try to be proactive to stop something horrible before it happens. The fear is that a police officer will assume it is a real gun, and if someone reaches for it, they'll end up with a bullet in them over a plastic gun. Then people will ask, 'Why didn't you do anything to stop this?"'

In the Subway case, the employee who saw the airsoft gun thought the business was going to be robbed, Detective Greg Jones said. After questioning the teens, who were grabbing a bite to eat on a break from work when they were arrested, Jones said, he didn't believe they planned to commit any crime.

"They were pulled over and taken out at gunpoint because the officers didn't know what was in the back seat," Jones said. "They look so real that it heightens the situation."

Burke said his office will look at each case individually and will likely offer the same reduced charge plea agreement in the future if the airsoft gun is not used to commit a crime. That offer is not afforded to anyone caught carrying a real handgun, he said.

"Our policy recognizes that airsoft guns in most cases are less dangerous than a real gun," Burke said.

Gaining popularity

Stacks of airsoft guns line a wall at Harry's Army Surplus in Ann Arbor. There are more than a dozen styles, ranging in price from $19.99 to several hundred dollars.

They're used for a variety of purposes - from target practice to army games, said Matt Salvadori, general manager of Harry's.

"They're all pretty popular," Salvadori said. "Our customers range from a parent buying one for a child to parents buying them for themselves."

Customers don't usually ask how they can be used or whether they're legal to carry, Salvadori said.

Many large retailers require customers be 18 years of age, but that's the only regulation.

They've been available for several years, but Kinsey said police began noticing them about a year ago. There's no way of telling how often they've been used in armed robberies or other crimes, he said.

Kinsey said he wishes manufacturers would produce them in all orange or a different style so they are less realistic.

"If they're used like a real gun, I have a problem with that," Kinsey said. "Personally, I don't have a problem as long as they're used properly with safety equipment."

Regulations

To buy firearms in Michigan, people must first obtain a purchase permit from their local police department. And to carry one on their person, they must apply for a concealed weapons permit.

Bennett, of the State Police, said his office has advised people that purchase permits and concealed weapons permits are not needed for airsoft guns since they aren't considering them firearms.

Burke said his position is that both permits are required.

However, it doesn't appear that anyone is getting those permits, nor are airsoft guns being safety inspected.

Ryan Mainz, a firearms registration expert for the Ann Arbor Police Department, said his office is following the State Police guidelines and refers callers to the Washtenaw County Prosecutor's Office.

"To my knowledge, we have never issued a license to purchase a pistol for an airsoft acquisition, nor conducted a safety inspection on one," Mainz said. "If the Washtenaw County Prosecutor's Office wants to interpret them as firearms and more specifically pistols, then someone is going to need to make that decision on an airsoft-by-airsoft basis to make sure it meets their interpretation."

An airsoft gun would be considered concealed if it's on a person's body or in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, Burke said. It's legal to carry them in the trunk or out of reach in the back portion of an SUV or minivan.

 

[Venator]

imported post

DrTodd wrote:

Airsoft dangerous? (http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1085410057206840.xml)


Fake guns are getting people in real trouble
Prosecutor says pellet pistols count as 'firearms'
Monday, 24, 2004
BY AMALIE NASH
Ann Arbor News Staff Reporter

The black plastic replica of a Glock handgun looks and feels like the weapons carried by Washtenaw County Sheriff's deputies, but it shoots plastic pellets and has a much smaller price tag.

Airsoft pistols could be an ideal device to use for simulation exercises during annual weapons training for sheriff's department personnel, Cmdr. Dave Egeler said.

But could they be violating the law by using or carrying them?

Airsoft pistols have become a legal quandary in Washtenaw County, where prosecutors have deemed them as firearms under state law and are criminally charging people caught carrying them.

But prosecutors in other Michigan counties and the State Police disagree, saying the realistic toys are just that - much like BB guns but with a slightly larger pellet made of plastic.

Until the Michigan Court of Appeals receives an airsoft pistol case or the Legislature weighs in, the local decisions apply only to Washtenaw County. But the current precedent has some parents and retailers on edge.

"We're reviewing and seriously considering obtaining those guns for training, but we're watching the current cases to make sure they don't impact our planned use of these things," Egeler said.

Legal or not?

Washtenaw County Chief Assistant Prosecutor Joseph Burke says airsoft guns qualify as firearms under Michigan law, which classifies firearms as weapons that expel a dangerous projectile larger than 0.177 caliber - the size of a BB.

The debate boils down to the term "dangerous projectile." Whether the small plastic projectile is dangerous depends on who you ask.

"We consider those a dangerous projectile, and I believe anyone who has been shot with one would also consider it a dangerous projectile," Burke said.

Circuit Court Judge David Swartz agreed with the Prosecutor's Office in a local case last year when the issue was challenged.

But Sgt. James Bennett of the State Police Executive Division in Lansing said his office has studied airsoft pistols and concluded that they don't qualify as firearms. Officials there don't believe the plastic pellet is a dangerous projectile, he said.

"At least once a week we're getting calls from police agencies and citizens asking about these," Bennett said. "Many are parents who are thinking of purchasing one for a teenage son or daughter and want to know if they're legal and what the process is."

Ann Arbor Police Detective Sgt. Richard Kinsey said he also doesn't think airsoft guns are firearms under the law.

"If you say that a firearm is anything that shoots a projectile over 0.177 caliber, a paintball gun is a firearm, a piece of PVC piping to shoot marshmallows is a firearm or a toy dart gun could be a firearm," Kinsey said. "I don't think that's the intent of the law. This is much less powerful than a BB gun."

Livingston County Chief Assistant Prosecutor Dan Garber said his office recognizes that airsoft guns can create problems. But prosecutors there aren't issuing charges since they don't think airsoft guns meet the definition for a firearm, he said.

The Oakland County Prosecutor's Office has yet to be confronted with the issue, said Jim Halushka, director of the warrants and investigations section. But the office previously said paintball guns were not considered firearms since the paintball is designed to shoot without seriously hurting anyone, Halushka said.

Criminally charged

Airsoft pistols first caught the attention of law enforcement in Ann Arbor in early 2003, when a passerby saw a man with a gun and called police.

The gun turned out to be an airsoft pistol, and 21-year-old Joseph McHugh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, a five-year felony. He was sentenced last month to 18 months of probation.

Since then, prosecutors have charged three other local men in airsoft pistol cases.

# A University of Michigan student was accused of firing an airsoft pistol from his dorm room window, striking a passing motorist in the face last month. He waived his preliminary hearing this month on charges of assault with a dangerous weapon, assault and battery and being a minor in possession of alcohol. He has a pretrial hearing June 21.

# Two Saline teenagers were charged with carrying a concealed weapon after one wore a holster carrying an airsoft gun in a Subway sandwich store in Ann Arbor. Police confiscated four airsoft guns from their car.

Jeremy Bauerle, 18, and Christopher Waters, 18, pleaded guilty earlier this month to a reduced charge of brandishing a firearm in public and will be sentenced June 10.

Bauerle's attorney, Joseph Simon of Ann Arbor, said he researched whether an airsoft gun was a firearm and agreed that it fit the definition.

"Originally the prosecutor's office was not inclined to reduce the charge, and we were pleased they revisited that and changed their viewpoint," Simon said. "The (airsoft) was never displayed in this case; it was being carried."

What sets airsoft pistols apart from paintball guns or other toy weapons is their realistic appearance, Burke said. The weapons are replicas of actual handgun models and are hard to distinguish - except for an orange tip at the end of the toy gun.

Burke said that criminal charges are being issued only when people use airsoft pistols improperly.

"All these cases are not kids playing in their back yards," Burke said. "The reason we're taking an aggressive approach is to try to be proactive to stop something horrible before it happens. The fear is that a police officer will assume it is a real gun, and if someone reaches for it, they'll end up with a bullet in them over a plastic gun. Then people will ask, 'Why didn't you do anything to stop this?"'

In the Subway case, the employee who saw the airsoft gun thought the business was going to be robbed, Detective Greg Jones said. After questioning the teens, who were grabbing a bite to eat on a break from work when they were arrested, Jones said, he didn't believe they planned to commit any crime.

"They were pulled over and taken out at gunpoint because the officers didn't know what was in the back seat," Jones said. "They look so real that it heightens the situation."

Burke said his office will look at each case individually and will likely offer the same reduced charge plea agreement in the future if the airsoft gun is not used to commit a crime. That offer is not afforded to anyone caught carrying a real handgun, he said.

"Our policy recognizes that airsoft guns in most cases are less dangerous than a real gun," Burke said.

Gaining popularity

Stacks of airsoft guns line a wall at Harry's Army Surplus in Ann Arbor. There are more than a dozen styles, ranging in price from $19.99 to several hundred dollars.

They're used for a variety of purposes - from target practice to army games, said Matt Salvadori, general manager of Harry's.

"They're all pretty popular," Salvadori said. "Our customers range from a parent buying one for a child to parents buying them for themselves."

Customers don't usually ask how they can be used or whether they're legal to carry, Salvadori said.

Many large retailers require customers be 18 years of age, but that's the only regulation.

They've been available for several years, but Kinsey said police began noticing them about a year ago. There's no way of telling how often they've been used in armed robberies or other crimes, he said.

Kinsey said he wishes manufacturers would produce them in all orange or a different style so they are less realistic.

"If they're used like a real gun, I have a problem with that," Kinsey said. "Personally, I don't have a problem as long as they're used properly with safety equipment."

Regulations

To buy firearms in Michigan, people must first obtain a purchase permit from their local police department. And to carry one on their person, they must apply for a concealed weapons permit.

Bennett, of the State Police, said his office has advised people that purchase permits and concealed weapons permits are not needed for airsoft guns since they aren't considering them firearms.

Burke said his position is that both permits are required.

However, it doesn't appear that anyone is getting those permits, nor are airsoft guns being safety inspected.

Ryan Mainz, a firearms registration expert for the Ann Arbor Police Department, said his office is following the State Police guidelines and refers callers to the Washtenaw County Prosecutor's Office.

"To my knowledge, we have never issued a license to purchase a pistol for an airsoft acquisition, nor conducted a safety inspection on one," Mainz said. "If the Washtenaw County Prosecutor's Office wants to interpret them as firearms and more specifically pistols, then someone is going to need to make that decision on an airsoft-by-airsoft basis to make sure it meets their interpretation."

An airsoft gun would be considered concealed if it's on a person's body or in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, Burke said. It's legal to carry them in the trunk or out of reach in the back portion of an SUV or minivan.

I think I would side with the state. If they are weapons you would have to register them and retail stores wouldn't be able to sell them without a FFL. THEY ARE NOT FIREARMS.

 

[Shotgun]

imported post

Is this next on the ATF's list?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c23_1276166790

 

[lil_freak_66]

imported post

DrTodd wrote:

Airsoft dangerous? (http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1085410057206840.xml)


Fake guns are getting people in real trouble
Prosecutor says pellet pistols count as 'firearms'
Monday, 24, 2004
BY AMALIE NASH
Ann Arbor News Staff Reporter

Saline teenagers were charged with carrying a concealed weapon after one wore a holster carrying an airsoft gun in a Subway sandwich store in Ann Arbor. Police confiscated four airsoft guns from their car.

if an employee saw it,then how was it concealed?


In the Subway case, the employee who saw the airsoft gun thought the business was going to be robbed, Detective Greg Jones said. After questioning the teens, who were grabbing a bite to eat on a break from work when they were arrested, Jones said, he didn't believe they planned to commit any crime.

"They were pulled over and taken out at gunpoint because the officers didn't know what was in the back seat," Jones said. "They look so real that it heightens the situation."


since there was no mention of the kids brandishing,the cops were unlawful in drawing weapons.



Regulations

To buy firearms in Michigan, people must first obtain a purchase permit from their local police department. And to carry one on their person, they must apply for a concealed weapons permit.


only handguns require purchase permits,thats also only if they do not have a cpl

no permit is needed to carry a firearm,only to carry a firearm concealed or into restricted areas


An airsoft gun would be considered concealed if it's on a person's body or in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, Burke said. It's legal to carry them in the trunk or out of reach in the back portion of an SUV or minivan.

they failed to mention that its only concealed if its concealed,nothing about in the open.

my comments in red.

what the LEO's did with the subway case,apply that to if the kids were open carrying a real glock,those cops would get a federal civil rights violation suit.

 

[kryptonian]

imported post

what about making a real gun look like a toy? put that little orange thing on the end. no law against that. you could tell the bad guy 'hey look. not even real' bam bam

 

[DrTodd]

imported post

My take on the story was that someone saw them get in the car, OC, ie... that they were carrying openly in the car. Remember that this would still be charged as a CCW. But if this was not the case, your questions make perfect sense.

 

[lil_freak_66]

imported post

kryptonian wrote:

what about making a real gun look like a toy? put that little orange thing on the end. no law against that. you could tell the bad guy 'hey look. not even real' bam bam

you sound like Kwirknu now!(see the tennessee page) he got tired of an orange tip and just painted his entire AK pistol orange.

 

[StingMP9]

imported post

I think the AG should be pressed into entering an opinion on this. Airsoft is clearly a pellet gun and individual prosecutor interpretations need to end