Is it always a crime to disobey police officer's order in Michigan?

[Bikenut]

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Hombre1 wrote:

-snip-

You guys are a tough crowd. Type "A" personalities indeed. Some on here are far more suspicious of the police than I am of OC'ers. OC doesn't bother me a bit.

That said, you guys can believe what you'd like.....but I meant what I said.

Let me explain why it may appear that folks who open carry appear to be suspicious of police.

First it isn't being "suspicious"... it is being justifiably wary.

When an officer plays the game and allows someone to think they are being detained.. when they really aren't... or makes an arrest that is later thrown out what are the negative impacts to the officer personally? That is a serious question.

Are you aware of the negative impact those incidents have on the citizen open carrying?

First of all is the fear, yes fear, that some law has been inadvertently broken... or the individual will make a mistake during the encounter and step over some line they aren't aware of and step on their own thingy resulting in an arrest.

If an arrest is made then there is the "cuffing and stuffing" followed by "strip and spread" followed by the clang of the barred door. After a restless night and incurring legal fees that could better be spent on groceries... missed days from work... appearing in court... the case gets tossed out. Hopefully. After much turmoil and money spent.

In short Sir: I would suggest that even though I don't know the ramifications for an officer who messes up... I am aware of the consequences of said officer's mess up to the the open carrier who suffered those consequences.

Should I be wary of a LE encounter? Damn straight!

If you really wish to help... then please give factual information as to the LE side of open carry. Only when both sides understand each other can there be co-operation... from both sides.

And please do not make any references to something along the line of... if folks aren't prepared to pay the piper they shouldn't join in the dance... because there shouldn't be any "dance" in the first place.

 

[Hombre]

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Bikenut wrote:

Hombre1 wrote:

-snip-

You guys are a tough crowd. Type "A" personalities indeed. Some on here are far more suspicious of the police than I am of OC'ers. OC doesn't bother me a bit.

That said, you guys can believe what you'd like.....but I meant what I said.

Let me explain why it may appear that folks who open carry appear to be suspicious of police.

First it isn't being "suspicious"... it is being justifiably wary.

When an officer plays the game and allows someone to think they are being detained.. when they really aren't... or makes an arrest that is later thrown out what are the negative impacts to the officer personally? That is a serious question.

Are you aware of the negative impact those incidents have on the citizen open carrying?

First of all is the fear, yes fear, that some law has been inadvertently broken... or the individual will make a mistake during the encounter and step over some line they aren't aware of and step on their own thingy resulting in an arrest.

If an arrest is made then there is the "cuffing and stuffing" followed by "strip and spread" followed by the clang of the barred door. After a restless night and incurring legal fees that could better be spent on groceries... missed days from work... appearing in court... the case gets tossed out. Hopefully.

In short Sir: I would suggest that even though I don't know the ramifications for an officer who messes up... I am aware of the consequences of said officer's mess up to the the open carrier who suffered those consequences.

Should I be wary of a LE encounter? Damn straight!

If you really wish to help... then please give factual information as to the LE side of open carry. Only when both sides understand each other can there be co-operation... from both sides.

That's a great post.....really. Painted a very good picture for me. Wow, I don't really know what to say.

Ummm......the LE side....well let's see....I think some cops have a tough time accepting OC for various reasons; fear being one of them. Egos? Maybe. I can only speak for myself. I've grown up with guns. Guns have been a big part of my family for 150 years. This country and what it stands for is also a big part of who I am. That said, OC doesn't really bother me. The AR15 in the restaurant bothered me in that it looks like an attention getting thing and I think that kind of stuff will hurt the cause for more firearm freedoms. To ignore the fact that today's society is not the same society of 50 years ago is making a big mistake.

Anyway, don't want to ramble.....good post though.

 

[Bikenut]

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Thank you for replying courteously. It is greatly appreciated.

I really am curious... what are the ramifications/consequences for an officer who makes an arrest that doesn't hold up... and was "iffy" to begin with?

Or a complaint is made against the officer for unnecessary detainment?

Reprimand? Arse chewing? Note in his file? Is his pay docked?

 

[Hombre]

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Bikenut wrote:

Thank you for replying courteously. It is greatly appreciated.

I really am curious... what are the ramifications/consequences for an officer who makes an arrest that doesn't hold up... and was "iffy" to begin with?

Or a complaint is made against the officer for unnecessary detainment?

Reprimand? Arse chewing? Note in his file? Is his pay docked?

Police agencies employ progressive discipline. If the officer keeps making the same mistakes then eventually he/she will probably be out of a job. Unless they work for the MSP,(they just get transferred to a different part of the state. Always beware of a "new" trooper at your local MSP post. If they are not rookies then they may have been moved for a reason. Local cops just get fired if they're too much of a problem. It may take a while, but it will happen if they don't straighten out and fly right.

Is the code real? I suppose. But not assignificant as it once was. There's just too much liability out there without keeping a "bad egg" around.

If officers make mistakes pertaining to bad arrests/detainment, then part of their progressive discipline could include remedial training or counseling (which is letting them know the "error of their ways" officially). Police personnel records are generally exempt from FOIA btw.

 

[Bikenut]

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Hombre1 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Thank you for replying courteously. It is greatly appreciated.

I really am curious... what are the ramifications/consequences for an officer who makes an arrest that doesn't hold up... and was "iffy" to begin with?

Or a complaint is made against the officer for unnecessary detainment?

Reprimand? Arse chewing? Note in his file? Is his pay docked?

Police agencies employ progressive discipline. If the officer keeps making the same mistakes then eventually he/she will probably be out of a job. Unless they work for the MSP, (they just get transferred to a different part of the state. Always beware of a "new" trooper at your local MSP post. If they are not rookies then they may have been moved for a reason. Local cops just get fired if they're too much of a problem. It may take a while, but it will happen if they don't straighten out and fly right.

Is the code real? I suppose. But not assignificant as it once was. There's just too much liability out there without keeping a "bad egg" around.

If officers make mistakes pertaining to bad arrests/detainment, then part of their progressive discipline could include remedial training or counseling (which is letting them know the "error of their ways" officially). Police personnel records are generally exempt from FOIA btw.

This I information I greatly appreciate!

Although it gives me pause because basically the consequences of an officer's actions could cost me my savings... and possibly my freedom... but he just gets transferred? Or if he screws up often enough (betcha there is a union involved?) he eventually gets fired.

But how many folks lost their savings and/or freedom before that officer finally got fired?

Hombre1... I hope you can see that folks who believe in freedom understand just how serious, and how much they have to lose, by engaging in open carry.

And why they would be wary of encounters with LE.

 

[Hombre]

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There is a union involved. Police Officers have clauses in their contracts requiring "just cause" for termination and are also entitled to binding arbitration under federal law as they are legally forbidden from striking.

However, like I said, with liability the way it is nobody wants to tolerate a "bad egg" for too long. "High maintenance" cops are dealt with by their bosses sooner or later.

 

[Bikenut]

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Hombre1 wrote:

There is a union involved. Police Officers have clauses in their contracts requiring "just cause" for termination and are also entitled to binding arbitration under federal law as they are legally forbidden from striking.

However, like I said, with liability the way it is nobody wants to tolerate a "bad egg" for too long. "High maintenance" cops are dealt with by their bosses sooner or later.

Thank you.

 

[zigziggityzoo]

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Hombre1 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Thank you for replying courteously. It is greatly appreciated.

I really am curious... what are the ramifications/consequences for an officer who makes an arrest that doesn't hold up... and was "iffy" to begin with?

Or a complaint is made against the officer for unnecessary detainment?

Reprimand? Arse chewing? Note in his file? Is his pay docked?

Police agencies employ progressive discipline.  If the officer keeps making the same mistakes then eventually he/she will probably be out of a job.  Unless they work for the MSP, (they just get transferred to a different part of the state.  Always beware of a "new" trooper at your local MSP post.  If they are not rookies then they may have been moved for a reason.  Local cops just get fired if they're too much of a problem.  It may take a while, but it will happen if they don't straighten out and fly right.

Is the code real?  I suppose.  But not as significant as it once was.  There's just too much liability out there without keeping a "bad egg" around.

If officers make mistakes pertaining to bad arrests/detainment, then part of their progressive discipline could include remedial training or counseling (which is letting them know the "error of their ways" officially).  Police personnel records are generally exempt from FOIA btw.

I personally find it disheartening that when they commit felonious acts, so often there's "not enough evidence to prosecute" as decided by the LEO department, not by the PA.

 

[Hombre]

imported post

zigziggityzoo wrote:

Hombre1 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

Thank you for replying courteously. It is greatly appreciated.

I really am curious... what are the ramifications/consequences for an officer who makes an arrest that doesn't hold up... and was "iffy" to begin with?

Or a complaint is made against the officer for unnecessary detainment?

Reprimand? Arse chewing? Note in his file? Is his pay docked?

Police agencies employ progressive discipline. If the officer keeps making the same mistakes then eventually he/she will probably be out of a job. Unless they work for the MSP,(they just get transferred to a different part of the state. Always beware of a "new" trooper at your local MSP post. If they are not rookies then they may have been moved for a reason. Local cops just get fired if they're too much of a problem. It may take a while, but it will happen if they don't straighten out and fly right.

Is the code real? I suppose. But not assignificant as it once was. There's just too much liability out there without keeping a "bad egg" around.

If officers make mistakes pertaining to bad arrests/detainment, then part of their progressive discipline could include remedial training or counseling (which is letting them know the "error of their ways" officially). Police personnel records are generally exempt from FOIA btw.

I personally find it disheartening that when they commit felonious acts, so often there's "not enough evidence to prosecute" as decided by the LEO department, not by the PA.

That's not usually the case, zig. If a crime is alleged to have been committed then the investigation is always forwarded to a prosecutor or the attorney general for review for criminal charges. In Michigan those internal cases are handled one or more of several ways; MSP, Sheriff's have other deputies/detectives from other non-joining counties come in to do the investigation, local pd's have internal affairs, the county sheriff or MSP do the investigation. Nonetheless, if an allegation of criminal act takes place the finished investigation is forwarded to a prosecutor for charges or review for charges, further follow up investigation.

 

[T Vance]

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.

 

[Hombre]

imported post

T Vance wrote:

sasha601 wrote:

I think we should start a poll. The question will be worded as follows:

"Shall we keep Hombre or shall we ban Hombre?"

Poll removed

What happened?:question:

 

[T Vance]

imported post

Hombre1 wrote:

T Vance wrote:

sasha601 wrote:

I think we should start a poll. The question will be worded as follows:

"Shall we keep Hombre or shall we ban Hombre?"

Poll removed

What happened?:question:

Not sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhO_gHuSsEk

 

[autosurgeon]

imported post

It's called Moderation.. Mike or John did not approve therefore it is gone.

I personally couldn't care one way or the other and voted as such in the poll... however I can understand why they would remove it.

 

[Hombre]

imported post

autosurgeon wrote:

It's called Moderation.. Mike or John did not approve therefore it is gone.

I personally couldn't care one way or the other and voted as such in the poll... however I can understand why they would remove it.

Did you vote "yes", "no" or "not sure"?:quirky