Is it better to have a cheap riffle rather than none?

[bigdaddy1]

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I think this topic is done.

 

[compmanio365]

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bigdaddy1 wrote:

I think this topic is done.

I think the topic is fine. I also think it's obvious who the troll is in this thread causing the derailment we've seen thus far. COUGHGlock34COUGH.......

 

[ourmanthejoker]

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ABNinfantryman wrote:

A cheap weapon is better than no weapon at all, but if you had the luxury to pick what you want I'd look into the Patriot Ordnance 416 or the SIG556. I prefer the SIG556 because it removes the forward assist and rear charginghandle, combines both and sticks it on the bolt itself, and is an american version of the 550 with some tweaks here and there. It also uses a gas piston system similar to an AK, and they seemed to have fixed the problems with the Gen 1s (The tolerances in thegas tube were too tight whichwas causingthe piston toseize).Expensive though.

On the topic of the AK vs AR, the AK was designed on the philosophy of sending a wall of lead in the direction of your enemy. It's essentially an automatic version of a musket meant to work in tandem with many more AKs to work effectively. Not to say you can't get a Krebs whom retools the barrel or makes his own, but if you're looking to get a Russian AK, or the POS Chinese and Romanian AKs, don't expect much for accuracy. Like ODA, my experience overseas has not been pleasant with AKs. They work for the locals because they use them like they're supposed to, a lot of rounds from a lot of different AKs at the same time, but for precision shots, bleh.

The sig556 is nice, but I have little girl hands (or it made me feel) and couldn't reach the mag release without stretching.

 

[Marco]

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ABNinfantryman wrote:

I'd look into the Patriot Ordnance 416 or the SIG556.

H&K makes the 416, Para Ordance makes the Tactical Target Rifle or TTR.

[line]

The OP could also look at a Galil and get the benefits of the AK and AR.

 

[bigdaddy1]

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What is a Galli?

 

[Hawkflyer]

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zoom6zoom wrote:

In some cases the barrels are not threaded to the action, but pinned.

Most AK's are pinned, too, with the exception of some of the early milled receiver guns.  A pinned barrel is not a problem. If you've ever had to cuss a barrel pin while trying to drive one out.... I've had a few that the 12 ton press had problems popping loose.

I am aware that most are pinned and there is nothing wrong with that in concept. But in a lot of the early rifles I was referring to the pins were not made of the proper alloys or tempered properly and they failed or the actions were made of poor alloys or not tempered properly and allowed the barrel pins to work loose and fall out releasing the barrel.

Higher grade actions usually are threaded AND pinned. But the fact is that you should examine ANY firearm before you buy it and look for flaws. Don't buy the ones that are not correct. Even then you will sometimes get a lemon.

My point was that you do not have to buy just ANY rifle and that there are quality differences that a person can detect. If you read this thread there are people here pounding the table in favor of firearms where the manufacturer did not even threat the holes in the action. An inspection of the weapons prior to purchase would have revealed this flaw and would have suggested to most people of average intellect to move on to the next box. Not necessarily the next manufacturer, but simply the next rifle in the pile.

Somehow this concept did not seem like rocket science to me but apparently it is to some.

Regards

 

[GLOCK21GB]

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This is a Galil . Made by the Israeli's

IMI Galil

Galil ARM 5.56mm Type Assault rifle Placeoforigin

Israel Service history Inservice 1972–present Usedby See Users Wars Lebanon Conflict, War in Somalia (1992–1993), South African Border War, Operation Enduring Freedom/ISAF – Afghanistan, Iraq War, Insurgency in the Philippines, Colombian Armed Conflict Production history Designer Yisrael Galili, Yaacov Lior Manufacturer Israel Military Industries (IMI), Bernardelli, Indumil, Ka Pa Sa State Factories Variants See Variants Specifications Weight SAR 5.56mm: 3.75kg (8.27lb)
AR 5.56mm: 3.95kg (8.7lb)
ARM 5.56mm: 4.35kg (9.6lb)
SAR 7.62mm: 3.85kg (8.5lb)
AR 7.62mm: 3.95kg (8.7lb)
ARM 7.62mm: 4.45kg (9.8lb)
Sniper: 6.4kg (14lb) Length SAR 5.56mm: 850mm (33.5in) stock extended / 614mm (24.2in) stock folded
AR, ARM 5.56mm: 987mm (38.9in) stock extended / 742mm (29.2in) stock folded
SAR 7.62mm: 915mm (36.0in) stock extended / 675mm (26.6in) stock folded
AR, ARM 7.62mm: 1,050mm (41.3in) stock extended / 810mm (31.9in) stock folded
Sniper: 1,112mm (43.8in) stock extended / 845mm (33.3in) stock folded Barrellength SAR 5.56mm: 332mm (13.1in)
AR, ARM 5.56mm: 460mm (18.1in)
SAR 7.62mm: 400mm (15.7in)
AR, ARM 7.62mm: 535mm (21.1in)
Sniper: 508mm (20.0in) [line] Cartridge 5.56x45mm NATO
7.62x51mm NATO Action Gas-operated, rotating bolt Rateoffire 630–750 rounds/min Muzzlevelocity SAR 5.56mm: 900m/s (2,953ft/s)
AR, ARM 5.56mm: 950m/s (3,116.8ft/s)
SAR 7.62mm: 800m/s (2,624.7ft/s)
AR, ARM 7.62mm: 850m/s (2,788.7ft/s)
Sniper: 815m/s (2,673.9ft/s) Effectiverange 300–500 m sight adjustments Feedsystem 5.56mm: 35, 50-round detachable box magazine
7.62mm: 25-round box magazine Sights Flip-up rear aperture with protective ears, flip-up tritium night sights, hooded front post The Galil is a family of Israeli small arms designed by Yisrael Galili and Yaacov Lior in the late 1960s and produced by Israel Military Industries Ltd (now Israel Weapon Industries Ltd) of Ramat HaSharon. The weapon system consists of a line chambered for the intermediate 5.56x45mm NATO caliber with either the M193 or SS109 ball cartridge and several models designed for use with the 7.62x51mm NATO rifle round.
There are four basic configurations of the Galil: the standard rifle-length AR (Assault Rifle), a carbine variant known as the SAR (Short Assault Rifle), a compact MAR (Micro Assault Rifle) version, and an ARM (Assault Rifle and Machine gun) light machine gun.
Contents [hide]

• 1 History2 Design details
  • 2.1 Operating mechanism2.2 Features2.3 Barrel2.4 Feeding2.5 Sights
  3 Variants
  • 3.1 AR3.2 ARM3.3 MAR3.4 7.62mm variants3.5 Other variants
  4 Users5 See also6 References7 Bibliography8 External links

// [edit] History The Galil’s design is optimized for operation in arid conditions and is based on the Finnish RK 62,[1] which itself was derived from the Soviet AK-47 assault rifle. It was selected as the winner of a competition for the Israel Defense Forces that included many other rival designs (among them, the M16A1, Stoner 63, AK-47 and HK33) and was formally accepted into service in 1972, replacing the dust-sensitive FN FAL.
[edit] Design details [edit] Operating mechanism The Galil series of rifles are selective fire weapons operated by a Kalashnikov-pattern gas-driven piston system with no regulator. The weapon is locked with a rotary bolt with two locking lugs that lock into recesses milled into the receiver.
When fired, a portion of the propellant gases are evacuated into the gas cylinder through a 1.8mm (0.07in) port, drilled at a 30° angle in the barrel, and a channel in the gas block. The high-pressure gases drive the piston rod (which is attached to the bolt carrier) rearward. During this rearward movement, a cam slot machined into the bolt carrier engages a cam pin on the bolt and rotates the bolt, unlocking the action. The arrangement of parts on the bolt carrier assembly provides for a degree of free travel, allowing gas pressure in the barrel to drop to a safe level before unlocking. To the immediate rear of the chrome-plated piston head is a notched ring which provides a reduced bearing surface and alleviates excess gas build-up. As the bolt carrier travels back, it compresses the return spring guided in a hollowed section of the bolt carrier and the return energy contained in the spring drives the moving assembly back forward, stripping a new round from the magazine and locking the action. The cocking handle is attached to the bolt carrier on the right side of the receiver and reciprocates with each shot; the handle is bent upwards allowing for operation with the left hand while the shooting hand remains on the pistol grip.
[edit] Features An Estonian soldier on patrol in Iraq with the compact Galil SAR in 5.56x45mm. The Galil is hammer-fired and has a trigger mechanism patterned after the trigger used in the American M1 Garand.[1] The rifle's fire selector lever is on the right side of the receiver and is similar in design to the one used in the AK; it is simultaneously the manual safety. The selector's uppermost position, marked "S" ("safe") disables the trigger and covers the cocking handle slot, inhibiting the ingression of environmental debris into the receiver, but allowing the bolt to be retracted enough to check the chamber. Unlike the AK, the Galil includes a selector switch on the receiver's left side—above the pistol grip—intended to be manipulated by the thumb of the shooting hand. This switch has three positions: "R" (British terminology for "repetition" or semi-automatic fire); the middle position, "A", produces fully automatic fire; and pushing the lever fully forward will activate the safety.
The Galil prototypes used a stamped and riveted sheet metal steel receiver, but due to the higher operating pressures of the 5.56x45mm cartridge, this solution was discarded and the designers turned to a heavy milled forging. As a testament to its heritage, early prototypes were fabricated using Valmet Rk 62 receivers manufactured in Helsinki.[1] All exterior metal surfaces are phosphated for corrosion resistance and then coated with a black enamel (except for the barrel, gas block and front sight tower).
The weapon is fitted with a high-impact plastic handguard and pistol grip and a side-folding (folds to the right side) tubular steel skeleton stock. The rifle can also be used with a sound suppressor.
[edit] Barrel Early production models were supplied with barrels that had six right-hand grooves and a 305mm (1:12 in) rifling twist (optimized for use with M193 ammunition), while recent production models feature a 178mm (1:7 in) twist barrel with six right-hand grooves (used to stabilize the heavier SS109/M855 projectile). The barrel has a slotted flash suppressor with 6 ports and can be used to launch rifle grenades or mount a bayonet lug attachment (it will accept the M7 bayonet).[1]
[edit] Feeding The Galil is fed from a curved, steel box magazine with a 35-round capacity (SAR and AR versions), a 50-round capacity (ARM model) or a special color-coded 12-round magazine blocked for use exclusively with ballistite (blank) cartridges, used to launch rifle grenades. An optional magazine adaptor enables the use of STANAG-compliant 20 and 30-round magazines from the M16 series.[1] The magazine is inserted front end first in a similar manner to the AK family.
[edit] Sights The L-shaped rear sight has two apertures preset for firing at 0–300m and 300–500m respectively (the rear sight can only be adjusted for elevation). The front post is fully adjustable for both windage and elevation zero and is enclosed in a protective hood. Low-light flip-up front blade and rear sight elements have three self-luminous tritium capsules (betalights) which are calibrated for 100 m when deployed. When the rear night sight is flipped up for use, the rear aperture sights must be placed in an offset position intermediate between the two apertures. Certain variants have a receiver-mounted dovetail adapter that is used to mount various optical sights.
[edit] Variants [edit] AR The standard rifle version which is fitted with a high-impact plastic handguard and pistol grip, a side-folding (folds to the right side) tubular metal skeleton stock as fitted to all variants except the Galil Sniper.
[edit] ARM The ARM light machine gun variant is additionally equipped with a carrying handle, folding bipod and a larger wooden handguard. The wooden handguard remains cooler during sustained automatic fire and has grooves for bipod storage. When folded, the bipod's legs form a speed chute for rapid magazine insertion; the bipod will also form a wire cutter and the rear handguard ferrule, which retains the bipod legs, can be used to open bottles by design, in order to prevent soldiers using magazine lips for this purpose which damaged them.[1]
[edit] MAR The most recent addition to the Galil family of weapons is the MAR compact carbine, which retains the internal features of the original Galil with a completely new frame, operating system and an even shorter barrel. Introduced to the public at the 2nd International Defence Industry Exhibition in Poland in 1994, the weapon was developed for use with the army and police special units, vehicle crews, army staff, special operations personnel and airborne infantry.
The MAR, also called the Micro Galil, is a reduced-size version of the Galil SAR (706mm stock extended / 465mm folded), weighing 2.98kg empty. Compared to the original carbine, the MAR has a shortened barrel (210mm), receiver, piston, gas tube and foregrip. The firearm is fed from a 35-round steel magazine which can be clipped together to increase reload speed. The MAR has the same rate of fire (630-750 rounds/min) as other 5.56 mm Galil models. An optional magazine adapter inserted inside the magazine well allows the use of standard 20 and 30-round M16 magazines. The lever safety and fire selector (located on both sides of the receiver) has four settings: "S"—weapon is safe, "A"—automatic fire, "B"—3-round burst, "R"—semi-automatic mode. The barrel has a multifunction muzzle device. The MAR is equipped with a folding tubular metal stock and a flip aperture sight with two settings: 0-300m and beyond 300 m. The MAR can also be equipped with a night vision device (attached through an adapter mounted to the left side of the receiver), a daytime optical sight (mounted via a receiver cover adapter), low-light sights with tritium illuminated dots, a vertical forward grip with integrated laser pointer, silencer and a nylon sling. Upon request, the weapon can be supplied with a bolt catch, plastic magazines weighing 0.164kg or an enlarged trigger guard for use with gloves.
[edit] 7.62mm variants Djiboutian National Police officers training with the 7.62mm Galil AR. A Nepalese peacekeeper with the 7.62mm Galil SAR. The 7.62mm Galil is derived from the 5.56mm base version. The rifle retains the general design layout and method of operation of the 5.56mm variant. In 7.62mm the Galil is available in several different configurations including a SAR carbine, full size AR rifle and ARM light machine gun. These weapons are fed from 25-round box magazines (previously 20-rounds). The barrel has four right-hand grooves with a 305mm (1:12 in) rifling twist rate.
The 7.62mm Galil Sniper (Galil Tzalafim, or Galatz) is a derivative of the ARM that is used with high quality 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition for consistent accuracy.
The precision rifle is a semi-automatic-only rifle with a similar operating system to other Galil variants, but optimised for accuracy. The rifle is fed from a 25-round box magazine. It uses a heavy profile match barrel that is heavier than that used on other variants. It is fitted with a multi-functional muzzle device, which acts as a flash suppressor and a muzzle brake. It can be replaced with a sound suppressor which requires the use of subsonic ammunition for maximum effectiveness.
The weapon was modified with a two-stage trigger mechanism with an adjustable pull force, a wooden buttstock that folds to the right side of the weapon and a heavy-duty bipod, mounted to the forward base of the receiver housing that folds beneath the handguard when not in use. The buttstock is fully adjustable in length and height and features a variable height cheek riser. The rifle comes with mechanical iron sights and an adapter used to mount a telescopic day sight (Nimrod 6x40) or a night sight. The mount is quick-detachable and capable of retaining zero after remounting. The precision rifle is stored in a rugged transport case that also comes with an optical sight, mount, filters, two slings (for carrying and firing) and a cleaning kit. Recent production models feature synthetic plastic furniture and a skeletonized metal stock.

 

[Alexcabbie]

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Glock34 wrote:

office888 wrote:

bigdaddy1 wrote:

I read very often about how poor a riffle an AK47 is, and that the AR is such a superior weapon. However you can buy 2 AK's for the price of 1 AR. I would LOVE to have an AR (style) riffle, but I just cant get past the price tag. I feel its better to have a reliable weapon you can afford, rather than wishing for one you cant.

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=161&

Enjoy your $599.95 AR15.

Although I did jump on Dunham's Black Friday sale. $279 for a WASR10 Single-Stack.

-Richard-

WOW, AWESOME deal on the 599.95 AR15 !!! , thats like 300-400 off regular price, they want to flood the market with them. that's awesome.

if the SHTF the AK-47 is a ok rifle, Very Reliable, but accuracy is not so good.
AR-15, very reliable, needs to be cleaned regularly and lubed regularly, accuracy is High with open sights , but much much more accurate with a red dot or rifle scope.
30 round magazine are plentiful & cheap for both weapons , but ammo is not so cheap anymore for either. I got ride of my Yugo, underfolder AK-47, will never part with the AR15 , I am currently working on a AR Build so I will have 2.

If the SHTF, then remember that supplies of Hoppes #9 may well be in short supply. An AK will fire even after it has been rusted shut, just kick the bolt open (so I have been told). AR-15, advantage is the US Military uses that ammo and if it comes to that they will be either on our side or the other. In the former case resupply will be simplified through the quartermaster (yeah, I know about quartermasters...) In the latter case, captured ammo will be usable.

A better choice for all contingenccies may well be a Hi-Point 9MM carbine. Rugged, reliable and uses the same ammo as the US/Nato for pistols and can be easily customized so it doesn't look so dorky.

 

[Gunslinger]

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

AKs are rock solid and deadly at ranges out to 100m. Beyond that, I'll take a .44 magnum. But how often would you go beyone that for accuracy? You can get $600 ARs, however. Stag makes one that just needs a sighting system; Doublestar is close to that price, also. Check out Buds.

I've shot the AK and M-16 in full auto and vastly prefer the M-16. It is a real rifle round whereas the AK is kind of a hybrid round--true definition of "assault rifle." Spray and pray for illiterate 3rd world export has made the Kalashnikov the most produced rifle in the world. In the hands of guys who know what they're doing, it is deadly. The M-16, or its civvie variant, is deadly in the hands of people who don't know what they're doing. I guess I would call that the biggest difference.

The AK can make accurate easy kills out to 300M+. It is just as much a rifle round as the .223 is. It can be argued that the 7.62x39 is more suited to killing medium sized game than the .223 varmint round (disclaimer: I am confident in the 5.56x45/.223's ability to kill humans and I have taken deer with it). Would you argue that the .30-30 is a "hybrid" round and only suitable for an "assault" rifle?

I don't agree with 300 meters for "easy kills," based on my experience with those it was used against in SEA. It's never been considered a "battle rifle" caliber due to its short 39mm case length, hence a true assault rifle round. Your point about the 30-30 having similar ballistics is valid--and I'm a handgun guy, not rifles, but imo the round is not a true 'battle rifle' cartridge. The .30 carbine round fits in that group also. The 5.56 was designed as a main battle rifle round. The 7.62X39 wasn't--at least according to its creator, Mikheil Kalashnikov. The Russkies had another round/rifle for that role. Still, a very effective weapon when used in its parameters, as is the much more accurate M-16. Under 50 yards, I'd take the AK due to its higher cross section. Over a 100, I'd stick with the Stoner. Just my 2C, of course.