Is the .22LR enough bullet?

[HandyHamlet]

I feel speak very plain english.

The End.

 

[09jisaac]

The End.

Oh, because I leave at a single letter you cannot understand what I am saying? I take it you have never made a mistake typing then?

 

[HandyHamlet]

Because you don't like dinosaurs...

Happy Thursday.

 

[09jisaac]

Happy thursday

 

[HandyHamlet]

For self-defense: .22 beats .45

[video]http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/for-self-defense-22-beats-45/[/video]

 

[09jisaac]

If you cite something as a source you generally agree that the author knows more about something than you do. So maybe you need to read the full study done and use it in its entirety. The author continues to say that .22 fails to stop the threat almost TWICE as often as larger caliber handguns. This, in my opinion, drastically changes the outcome of the study (author agrees).

For the record, this cite has already been posted. Your cite added no new facts, just exact ones that have already been brought up. Just because you post the same thing multiple times does not mean you have multiple cites.

Read the full study that was quoted before you act like you know what it is saying. At one point he even suggests to "skip the mouse guns".

Do you honestly fail to see how many of your cites (some are the same) support what I am saying? That you want a firearm that can stop the worse of the most common threats reliably, through incapacitation. In this day it is common to be attacked by people on hard drugs or people enraged or mentally ill. You choose a firearm by the highest common threat, not the lowest.

 

[jdholmes]

Actually I disagree with you if you think that the full study further supports your opinion.

It actually reflects that if you hit a target in the torso or head with a .22 vs. a .45 the chance of incapacitating the target with one shot is 9% less likely with a .45.

The only area that showed a benefit to the .45 is when shots anywhere in the body are taken into consideration - the likelihood of incapacitation from a .45 became 8% more likely.

Yes...if you plan on shooting a target in the arms or legs, it appears that this study supports your opinion of the .45 being a better choice.

The avg. rounds to incapacitate for a .22 are 1.38 and for a .45 are 2.08. Since we are talking about bullets here we can't round down, we have to round up and say 2 bullets for a .22 and 3 bullets for a .45 on average an extra bullet is required to incapacitate with a .45 according to this full study.

How does this support your opinion again?

 

[DevinWKuska]

Ok so please forgive me as I am still looking for the stat but I read a bit ago that something like 80% of handgun shot victims don't die. With this knowledge the thought some argue a .22lr not incapacitating an attack is really a moot point. Furthermore I would like to ask if anyone here has been shot? I am sure they would vouch as to the attackers(who survived a while) probable thoughts.... " omg I have been shot." when you have been shot you panic and instinct would tell you to flee. Getting shot hurts like hell and you dont sit there and think what caliber just shot me.I get a bit annoyed at folks who think they need the biggest possible caliber to put someone down. Point in case the .22 cal kills more folks around the world then the 9mm.... .22lr, 22/250, .223 you name it.

To answer the OPs original question... I would say as with any firearm, if you become proficient with it then yes. It's good enough for sentries, dogs, and assassination victims, it must be good enough for you.

 

[WulfstanNW]

The one factor I see in any caliber of weapon your ammo.

For self defense there is plenty of ammo out there that is lousy, and mostly in the over penetration area. But then any ammo is better than having no ammo. I think what is boils down to in using a .22lr for self defense is what ammo are you going to load? If I had to personally, I would find a high capacity revolver and load it with yellow jackets.

 

[HandyHamlet]

If you cite something as a source you generally agree that the author knows more about something than you do.

cite (st)
tr.v. cit·ed, cit·ing, cites
1. To quote as an authority or example.
2. To mention or bring forward as support, illustration, or proof:


You should try it sometime. It is actually expected on this forum.

 

[newbie]

Good choice of firearm .22LR IMO

If I could find a GREAT deal on a .22LR handgun I would carry it for cc. My girlfrirnd once she learns more about guns will be carrying a .22LR handgun, for self defence any caliber of gun will be plenty for you. If you have nothing else. I carry a .380ACP and yet there are them hard headed people who will fight with me about stoping power. My only end to that fight will be if you can dodge 16 rounds of .380ACP then yes my gun will not stop you. But back to the .22LR I see no problem with it. Great gun for anyone vary cheap ammo you could go out shoot it all day long wiyhout hurting your pocket. Also if your going to carry a .22LR handgun the only thing I can think of is, carry an extra clip or two. They are small same with the gun so no worrys about your pants falling down from weight of it.


Now to make it quick and simple if you dont want to read that. Its a great gun cheap to shoot, also anyone can fire this gun weather its you guy or girl or if your teaching your kids to shoot my first gun was a .22LR plankster I loved it. I will teach my kids with this caliber firearm as well.

 

[09jisaac]

cite (st)
tr.v. cit·ed, cit·ing, cites
1. To quote as an authority or example.
2. To mention or bring forward as support, illustration, or proof:


You should try it sometime. It is actually expected on this forum.

You are not going to stop until I recite every thing on here, are you? You cannot disprove my argument so you must either butcher my sentences to change the meaning or keep calling for the reposting of cites.

.22 failed to immediately incapacitate the threat 1
.22 fails to incapacitate a threat 30% of the time
.22 failed to immediately incapacitate the threat 2
Video

If you were following THIS discussion you would have already found these sources. You seem to fail to understand that after the facts are presented then should not have to be recited.

You, apparently, do not realize when cites are required. Cites are NOT needed with you are discussing the same facts OR when you are discussing common knowledge. Since I was just evaluating the evidence already cited I did not NEED CITES as they were already cited.

 

[HandyHamlet]

You are not going to stop until I recite every thing on here, are you? You cannot disprove my argument so you must either butcher my sentences to change the meaning or keep calling for the reposting of cites.

I can't disprove what you say because all you offer to the discussion in unsubstantiated opinion.

If you were following THIS discussion you would have already found these sources. You seem to fail to understand that after the facts are presented then should not have to be recited.

Not only am I following, I know those links were posted by me as cites to back up what I posted. In every story I posted the attacker was stopped by a .22. Which has been my point from the beginning. Which you refuse to acknowledge. Because in your mind a round is not effective unless it drops a drug addicted elephant rampaging through town looking for hookers and crack from 5 miles out. "incapacitation" right?

You, apparently, do not realize when cites are required. Cites are NOT needed with you are discussing the same facts OR when you are discussing common knowledge. Since I was just evaluating the evidence already cited I did not NEED CITES as they were already cited.

It is you, my friend, who has no clue when cites are required. This is sadly evident by the fact that you have yet to provide a single one in this entire discussion. Not one cite and not one fact. Just a lot of what ifs and opinion. Could you be a dear and translate this into English please?

That you want a firearm that can stop the worse of the most common threats reliably, through incapacitation.

See, this would be a perfect place to insert a cite. Might make it understandable. A cite that explains what the f*ck "the worse of the most common threats" is would be appreciated.

 

[HandyHamlet]

If I could find a GREAT deal on a .22LR handgun I would carry it for cc.

Still plenty of Beretta Model 70-71 out there. My local gun shop has one in the counter right now.

 

[09jisaac]

I am not presenting evidence I am DISCUSSING EVIDENCE. If we were talking about a newspaper article I wouldn't need to post a link to it every time I discuss what it means, I don't need to post the same links over in this thread either. <--- Do you understand that? I do not profess to be a scholar, but I do know when cites are warranted.

There is TWO ways to stop a threat. Psychologically or physically. The worst threats are the ones that do not stop until they are unable to continue. You post cites of the LOWEST forum of stopping a threat, one where they CHOOSE to stop the threat. Any gunshot would be a strong motivator to stop a threatening behavior but it is still their choice. In our modern society it is too common for mentally unbalanced people to be the aggressor.

Have you ever heard the term "loaded for bear"? Common threats in the wilderness included mostly coyotes, large cats, wolfs and large herbivores but the worst common threat was the bear. So people in the wilderness would "load for bear" meaning they were prepared for their worst common threat. Do you need me to cite that common knowledge too?

 

[newbie]

Still plenty of Beretta Model 70-71 out there. My local gun shop has one in the counter right now.

Whats the price on it? Like I said it would have to be the deal of a lifetime if im going to carry one myself

But im also looking for a .22LR, or short possibly if the price is right for my girlfriend any condition because it will be painted purple,pink. Dont bash me its what she wants to carry

 

[HandyHamlet]

Whats the price on it? Like I said it would have to be the deal of a lifetime if im going to carry one myself

But im also looking for a .22LR, or short possibly if the price is right for my girlfriend any condition because it will be painted purple,pink. Dont bash me its what she wants to carry

$400 - perfect condition w/one mag. I'm sure they would go down a bit. Keep your eyes open and something will come along.

 

[newbie]

$400 - perfect condition w/one mag. I'm sure they would go down a bit. Keep your eyes open and something will come along.

yea in my area, we havr a few gun shows ill be going to this summer. Hopefully I can find a steal there. My friend brought a .380ACP that was engraved like a show gun and a mac 10 in a combo deal for $300 at a show that I missed out on. I wish I found stuff like that :/ so hopefully soon ill grab one for the girlfriend

 

[jdholmes]

I am not presenting evidence I am DISCUSSING EVIDENCE. If we were talking about a newspaper article I wouldn't need to post a link to it every time I discuss what it means, I don't need to post the same links over in this thread either. <--- Do you understand that? I do not profess to be a scholar, but I do know when cites are warranted.

There is TWO ways to stop a threat. Psychologically or physically. The worst threats are the ones that do not stop until they are unable to continue. You post cites of the LOWEST forum of stopping a threat, one where they CHOOSE to stop the threat. Any gunshot would be a strong motivator to stop a threatening behavior but it is still their choice. In our modern society it is too common for mentally unbalanced people to be the aggressor.

Have you ever heard the term "loaded for bear"? Common threats in the wilderness included mostly coyotes, large cats, wolfs and large herbivores but the worst common threat was the bear. So people in the wilderness would "load for bear" meaning they were prepared for their worst common threat. Do you need me to cite that common knowledge too?

This is a pretty fun guy.

I've read through this thread and seen lots of times folks have cited and listed facts that prove the .22 to be worthy as a defensive sidearm and he carefully dodges around and doesn't acknowledge those.

Sounds like somebody is just interested in his little peeing match with one person...not really about the conversation anymore, is it?

And by the way, lots of people carrying in the wilderness aren't carrying the largest calibre out there, they are carrying what can do the job adequately in their opinion. Bears have been killed with .22's FYI.

 

[09jisaac]

This is a pretty fun guy.

I've read through this thread and seen lots of times folks have cited and listed facts that prove the .22 to be worthy as a defensive sidearm and he carefully dodges around and doesn't acknowledge those.

Sounds like somebody is just interested in his little peeing match with one person...not really about the conversation anymore, is it?

And by the way, lots of people carrying in the wilderness aren't carrying the largest calibre out there, they are carrying what can do the job adequately in their opinion. Bears have been killed with .22's FYI.

I DO acknowledge those, and then point out that they SUPPORT what I am saying. I am not saying that the .22 cannot stop a threat, I am not saying that the .22 cannot kill a man/bear/pig. You all say I am ignoring the facts, I read the facts. It seems that you all do not understand my stance. I am saying that the .22 FAILS TO INCAPACITATE THREATS A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE TIME. Read the large letters again if you still do not understand my stance.

Killing a bear means very little to me. Death is not the ultimate outcome. Stopping the threat is. I am saying that a lot of things can stop the threat but it is best to have as close to a guarantee as possible. You don't go to the least effective tool to do your work.

Supposedly, before my time, there was a story in local newspapers "Man kills bear that kills man". The story was that a man walked up to a bear in the woods. The man pulled his knife (he wasn't expecting a bear) and fatally wounded the bear. The bear killed the man, walked a little ways away and fell over dead. Did it do any good that the man killed the bear? Very little, he was dead by the time this was accomplished.

To reiterate what I am saying, stopping the threat is the ultimate goal of a defensive situation. If all it took was a show of force then a .22LR/9mm/.45acp/.308win will be equal. If it takes incapacitating the threat then they will not be equal and never will. The .308 as a caliber (meaning shot placement, follow up shots are the same) will be more effective than the others, the 9mm and .45acp will have marginal differences and the .22 will come up last. The 9mm/.45acp will stop/incapacitate/kill a threat in any instances that a .22 will, but it is not the same vice versa.

EDIT: If you are going to disagree what I am saying, then disagree with what I am saying not what you think I am saying.