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It never ceases to amaze me... Take me out to the ball game...

sudden valley gunner

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Whenever you see a law on the books, one of your first suspicions should be is that law is on the books because not everyone would behave according to the specifications of the law and so if a restaurants or theatres or trolly carts would not let black enter under the same condition of whites why in the world would you need segregation laws.Evidently some whites would have and so the system would tended to collapsed. Speaking of discrimination I believe people have the right to discriminate on any basis they want, that is you can discriminate on race or sex or criminal background or what ever but you don't have the right to use government to force other people to concure with your discrimination.-Walter E. Williams (destroying the false meme it was a market failure)
 

utbagpiper

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I RESPECT LIBERTY SO MUCH I WILL SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF BUSINESSES TO BE BIGOTS AND REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE FOR ANY REASON OVER STATE VIOLENCE.

A fine position to hold and I don't begrudge you it. I do not believe it is a position that can be supported politically without you being painted as a bigot, a homophobe, racist, sexist, etc by many who disagree. Clearly you are willing to take that abuse should it come as you stand on principle. I have to respect that. At one time I shared that view. Part of me still does. Part of me recognizes not only political reality, but also the extent to which undue influence over the rights of others can be exerted by large corporations.

And part of me recognizes the extent to which making it easy for others to paint us as bigots, makes it easier for them to attack RKBA.

We are not living in a libertarian or anarchist utopia. And we're not going to wake up tomorrow living in one either.

If two or three large underwriters impose anti-gun requirements, those requirements will flow down through dozens of insurance companies and gun stores can no longer get insurance, every business is compelled to ban guns, homeowners find that owning guns price them out of insurance markets. Living without insurance today is probably more risky for most of us than living without guns.

One simple example. And given current political and market realities, it isn't like a pro-gun underwriting can just pop up tomorrow to meet the market need.

In many rural areas, it is a long way between alternative service providers.

A strict adherence to your view means a private hospital has every right to refuse service for the most bigoted of reasons even if means certain death for the unfortunate person who finds himself 50 or 100 miles from the next option. Alternatively, it might mean a person dying alone as his homosexual partner is denied next-of-kin respect.

It means a few folks in a town can run off and keep out any unpopular group by refusing basic services.

I can't point to a nice, pure theory that says the state (ie society) has a proper power to require businesses to provide services to all comers, to higher without regard to various characteristics.

But I can point to some very ugly realities in society when that power (rightly or wrongly) isn't exercised. Not theory. Reality. Recent history. Living men who were denied the dignity of using an otherwise public toilet for no other reason than the color of their skin.

Theory is good. But I've reached the point in life where I can't ignore reality.

I don't necessarily think you are wrong, SVG. I just don't think you are entirely correct. And I don't think the answers are quite as easy as perfect adherence to a theory.

Not to mention the question of whether public health and safety laws are a violation of property rights as you see them.

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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Whenever you see a law on the books, one of your first suspicions should be is that law is on the books because not everyone would behave according to the specifications of the law and so if a restaurants or theatres or trolly carts would not let black enter under the same condition of whites why in the world would you need segregation laws.Evidently some whites would have and so the system would tended to collapsed. Speaking of discrimination I believe people have the right to discriminate on any basis they want, that is you can discriminate on race or sex or criminal background or what ever but you don't have the right to use government to force other people to concure with your discrimination.-Walter E. Williams (destroying the false meme it was a market failure)

I've often expressed a similar view. Williams isn't wrong.

But there is more to this I think.

Elimination of segregation laws didn't lead to the end of private contracts that prevented selling homes in certain neighborhoods to blacks. Where a man can raise his children has a real effect on those children's chances at financial and other success. There is a huge difference between growing up where everyone plans to go to college or otherwise obtain marketable skills, vs growing up where graduating HS is beyond most people's ambition. We also consider physical safety of one area to another.

In small towns, any single grocer or other service provider could risk losing 75% or more of his business if he provided service without discrimination.

I don't think such discrimination would be common today.

But the homosexuals have made a compelling argument that to permit it against them, however infrequently (especially while others enjoy legal protections against discrimination) is to send a subtle but unmistakable social message that homosexuals are 2nd class citizens, that it is ok to mistreat them. That this creates a situation in which criminal violence is more likely to occur.

I've frequently said that were we in Libertopia, I'd not suggest gun owners get the first anti-discrimination law. But in the current reality, what message do we allow society to continue sending about carrying guns if gun owners remain the last, only identifiable minority group against whom discrimination is legally permitted. Does this not reinforce the social belief that guns are scary and dangerous? That cops must take some action--at least investigate--if a concerned citizen calls in a MWAG?

What is the likely 911 response to a call about two men I a park holding hands or showing other mild, but clearly intimate affections? What about a call about an inter-racial couple doing likewise?

What might the response have been 50 years ago to those calls?

The repeal of laws criminalizing integration and homosexual conduct are inextricably linked with social views on those activities. And social views on those activities are greatly influenced by laws.

Are gun owners 2nd class citizens? Or do we deserve the same protections as every other protected group?

Do we get to that equality most readily by trying to attack the protections others get? Or by making the case that we deserve the same protections?

If someday society wakes up and says, "Enough with telling businesses how to run their affairs, repeal all the anti-discrimination laws. We are past that and don't need it," I don't believe I'll object.

But apparently we are not there yet, and I believe gun carriers should not be singled out as the last social pariah undeserving of receiving goods, services, and employment on equal terms with every other protected group.

Charles
 

OC for ME

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Simply CC and nobody knows you are a 2nd class citizen. Or, unlike blacks, gays, men or women, leave your gun at home or in your vehicle.

The premise is false, gun ownership is unquestionably a retail choice.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Or do we deserve the same protections as every other protected group?

You've already made you case for evenness over equality, no need to rehash it in my opinion. No one deserves something just because someone else has it. Just as equality isn't evenness, neither is fairness evenness.

An aggression masqueraded as protection should not be expanded, it should be reduced and eliminated.

Do gun owners deserve to be able to use force against a business in response to that business prohibiting firearms from their property. NO!

That other groups might abandon principle hardly justifies us abandoning them too!
 

stealthyeliminator

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And I don't think the answers are quite as easy as perfect adherence to a theory.

The answer people really need is surrender to Christ and acceptance of the grace of God. Surrender means that we spend our very lives in pursuit of adherence to the principles and laws Christ gave us, despite the fact that we know we won't always succeed. So no, this consequentialist attitude is not moral, not Christian, and is never superior to holding principles uncompromisingly.
 

Ezek

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Jan 19, 2015
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missouri
I say if they want to discriminate against a patron on their premises.. whatever, go for it, they won't be in business long after the throngs of protesters show up when the media get's ahold of the story.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I say if they want to discriminate against a patron on their premises.. whatever, go for it, they won't be in business long after the throngs of protesters show up when the media get's ahold of the story.

There is ample evidence of this too. Football player smack chic around, league does little about it. Public finds out....all of sudden football player out of a job. The market works better at everything than the state.
 

OC for ME

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There is ample evidence of this too. Football player smack chic around, league does little about it. Public finds out....all of sudden football player out of a job. The market works better at everything than the state.
Disagree. When was the last time a peaceable, law abiding gun owner being asked to leave a store raised a ruckus...beyond the choir being appalled. Oh, remember, the appalling thing is, really, that a gun owner would go into the store in the first place...very dangerous stuff...no?
 

sudden valley gunner

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Disagree. When was the last time a peaceable, law abiding gun owner being asked to leave a store raised a ruckus...beyond the choir being appalled. Oh, remember, the appalling thing is, really, that a gun owner would go into the store in the first place...very dangerous stuff...no?

Maybe that is a problem of gun owners not raising a ruckus.

Personally I have no problem with a gun owner going into the store. I don't buy the rationalizations of some.
 

OC for ME

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Maybe that is a problem of gun owners not raising a ruckus.

Personally I have no problem with a gun owner going into the store. I don't buy the rationalizations of some.
I think you misunderstand. When was the last time the general public raised a ruckus because a gun owner got kicked out of a store? As we apparently do when a NFLer smacks his girlfriend.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I think you misunderstand. When was the last time the general public raised a ruckus because a gun owner got kicked out of a store? As we apparently do when a NFLer smacks his girlfriend.

I did indeed misunderstand. Thank you for the clarification.

I would say the difference is the property owner is not infringing upon a gun owners right and committing agression by refusing service to anyone. ( Although if its a protected class masses tend to unite) Were as the football player was committing a clear cut act of aggression against another. The owner would not have done much more than a slap on the wrist if it hadn't become as public as it has.
 
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