Journal Sentinal - Brookfield police stop car to seize legally carried gun

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

http://www.uucw.org/news-a-events/1...d31045917126=57d886c1f486d8bd05d0f7e8bfc6d841

This is the current statement from the UU church about the incident.

On July 4, 2010 we did not have signs prohibiting firearms posted in our building. Now we do have such signs at both the east and west entrances.

Some of our members and friends felt frightened or threatened by the presence of a person with a loaded gun in our church. Others of us did not, or did not notice the woman with the gun. Some of us who were not present now feel scared to come to church.

WHY? The church put up a "no guns" sign. Why would they be afraid to come to church now? The sign will keep guns out? Right?

 

[kwikrnu]

WHY? The church put up a "no guns" sign. Why would they be afraid to come to church now? The sign will keep guns out? Right?

:lol:

 

[MKEgal]

The church put up a "no guns" sign. Why would they be afraid to come to church now? The sign will keep guns out? Right?

Oh, Nik, stop! You're making my head hurt trying to figure out their 'logic'! LOL

 

[apjonas]

All Things Considered

She's lucky not to be charged with a 941.23 violation.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

She's lucky not to be charged with a 941.23 violation.

Did you not read the district attorneys letter? They couldn't because of several reasons:

1. Cops didn't have probable cause to pull her over let alone search the vehicle so finding a loaded, encased firearm would not of occurred.
2. The law was passed before the WI constitutional amendment that made carrying legal so he believes the statute is unconstitutional.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

She's lucky not to be charged with a 941.23 violation.

Knowing what I know, I believe the state of Wisconsin is lucky they didn't charge 941.23

 

[Doug Huffman]

I'm in with the in crowd, I go where the in crowd goes
I'm in with the in crowd and I know what the in crowd knows
Anytime of the year, don't you hear? Dressing fine, making time
We breeze up and down the street, we get respect from the people we meet
They make way day or night, they know the in crowd is out of sight
I'm in with the in crowd, I know every latest dance
When you're in with the in crowd, it's so easy to find romance
Any time of the year, don't you hear? If it's square, we ain't there
We make every minute count, our share is always the biggest come out
Other guys imitate us, but the original is still the greatest, in crowd!
Any time of the year, don't you hear? Spendin' cash, talkin' trash
I'll show you a real good time, come on with me, leave your troubles
behind
I don't care where you've been, you ain't been nowhere til you've been
in
WIth the in crowd, with the in crowd, in crowd!

!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smithman]

Knowing what I know, I believe the state of Wisconsin is lucky they didn't charge 941.23

To reiterate, there's always a reason why the DA doesn't charge. Past issues that sound similar to this one that have been published show that it usually is a clear VIOLATION of someone's rights by LEOs.

 

[markofwisconsin]

941.23

So is 941.23, now null and void?????????????????????? Can you have a loaded gun in your vehicle.

One more question. I have a full size pickup, with a regular cab, and no shell on the back of it. Where can I or should I carry my handgun, which is in a zippered case, and unloaded. On the front seat with in plane sight, or behind the seat. No matter what it is within easy reach of me. I'm not clear on the law as I read it, especially in regard to the within easy reach part?

 

[Doug Huffman]

Oohh! A test case volunteer?

 

[bnhcomputing]

So is 941.23, now null and void?????????????????????? Can you have a loaded gun in your vehicle.

One more question. I have a full size pickup, with a regular cab, and no shell on the back of it. Where can I or should I carry my handgun, which is in a zippered case, and unloaded. On the front seat with in plane sight, or behind the seat. No matter what it is within easy reach of me. I'm not clear on the law as I read it, especially in regard to the within easy reach part?

First, NO, 941.23 (prohibits concealed carry) is NOT null/void. Concealed Carry is prohibited at this time.

The WI State Supreme Court was CLEAR in their ruling about "out of reach," you can always "put it in the trunk."

Unload it, put it in a case, and put it right on the dash. Then it isn't "hidden from ordinary view." Manyh of us carry in this manner.

 

[Doug Huffman]

I believe that the standard is whether or not an approaching cop can determine his potential hazard. A cased gun is hidden by the simple definitions of the words.

* (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

 

[markofwisconsin]

Being legal.

Doug,

I just want to be legal. Some of the language is hard to understand, in these legal documents. You have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand some of it.

 

[markofwisconsin]

bnhcomputing......Thanks for the info.

Like I said, I have a pickup so there is no trunk to put the gun in. No matter what, it is within easy reach in a standard cab pickup. That's why I never have ammo, next to the encased and unloaded weapon.

 

[Doug Huffman]

I believe that to be "legal" one must behave conservatively and read the law as a reasonable man and not as a lawyer-wannabe giving out free advise.

Here is the plain language. You may not go anywhere armed with a concealed weapon. The requirements of this crime are that a dangerous weapon is on your person or within reach, and you know that its there, and the weapon is hidden. There is no exception for carrying in or on a vehicle.

941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
[ ... ]
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.

167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and bows.
[ ... ]
(2) PROHIBITIONS; MOTORBOATS AND VEHICLES; HIGHWAYS AND ROADWAYS.
[ ... ]
(b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.

Chapters 900 and above are the criminal statutes. A violation of Chapter 167 is a forfeiture only, akin to a traffic citation.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

As Doug said, there is enough contradictory law that you have to just use your best judgement.

You can read some other thread where MKEGal was 'arrested' for having a loaded weapon in a case on the front seat but the DA did not charge her with anything because of several reasons. You can look at the threads for details.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

Mark,

When I transport my gun, its in a case, unloaded, on the seat next to me in my truck.

In addition, I transport my gun on my motorcycle. I ride a sportbike and the only place I feel comfortable transporting it where it won't fall off is in a magnetic tank-bag that sits on the tank of my motorcycle. Clearly within reach, and clearly concealed inside the zippered tank-bag.

If that isn't legal I will be EAGER to be the first test case.

I've discussed the issue with a knowledgeable attorney who is an expert in gun rights cases who shared with me that there has to be a practical manner to transport a firearm using the ordinary conveyances of the day (bicycle, motorcycle, scooter, walking, pickup etc)

If you are doing NOTHING else wrong, not engaged in ANY illegal activity, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about in the end. HAVING SAID THAT, it is clear for all of us here (the Brookfield incident being a perfect example) of the police behaving improperly. Illegal search, illegal seizure, illegal arrest.

MKEgal was, in the end, never charged, but that didn't mean it wasn't a huge hassle for her.

No one can promise you that you'll never have an unpleasant OC experience. We cannot be assured all police officers will follow the law and limits of their legal authority at all times.

Having said that, these examples if improper police treatment are definitely a rare exception. 1000's of people OC in Wisconsin every day and there are just a handful of incidents of improper/unpleasant police contact.

In the rare event there is improper police contact please let us at Wisconsin Carry know. Our mission is to protect and expand the human right you have to carry in the manner of your choosing. We've been able to obtain judgments on behalf of our members who's rights were violated. We continually review situations to determine if we have an opportunity to get involved legally to set precedents (practical and legal) that will deter other departments from infringing on the rights of law-abiding carriers.

 

[markofwisconsin]

Thanks

Thank you, for the advice. I just didn't want to get caught up in some gray area of the law.

Glad I found out about your organization. At 50 years of age and a long time gun owner, it's comforting to know there are still people of conviction out there.

 

[MKEgal]

A similar case from California... and a rather large judgment against the city!
Let's see... no reason for cops to stop a citizen? Check.
2 guns pointed at citizen? Check.
Citizen arrested? Check.
Citizen held at police station for a couple of hours? Check.

Main thing different is that he got his gun back a lot faster than I did.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=347348

 

[McX]

i simply must ask; citizens who had rights violated goes to court and wins a................check?