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Las Vegas, NV police violate 3rd 4th & 14th amendments

papa bear

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The misguided belief the constitution somehow grants the government from only respecting the rights of united States citizens.

SVG, don't really want to be OT. just know it doesn't matter what you believe. the US constitution only goes as far as the US borders, there is actual case where even if you are not a US citizen but on US soil, you are covered by the constitution. now a US citizen on foreign soil has no protection from the US constitution.

same reason the federal government can order you killed without trial on foreign soil. they want to do it on US soil too
 

Citizen

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Cops are not unconstitutional. Some of the things they do may be, but the institution is no more unconstitutional than any other law enforcement agency--mainly because, except for federal LEAs and actions that a local or State police agency may take that are in direct violation of a specific constitutional provision, those local and State police agencies are not the business of the Constitution.

Check your State constitutions on a one-by-one basis if you think that the mere existence of a particular LEA violates it.

You know, Eye. I actually reworded that previous post of mine to be respectful. I can see now that the effort was wasted. So, here is what I was gonna write, to the best of my recollection.

Well, readers. There you have it. Just because Eye95 declares it, that's the way it is. Accept it, you simpletons. Men like him, little short of gods, don't need to bother to explain themselves or support their arguments. Just because they say it, that is sufficient.

What an arrogant phu*k. He didn't even bother to read Root's paper despite a polite invitation. No. He knows all about it. And, that's the end of it. No point in learning more from, say, a scholar whose paper has more footnotes/cites than you can shake a stick at. And, certainly no point in even bothering to try to refute any of Root's arguments. Obviously its beneath men like Eye.

And, we all know just how constitutional is everything else government does; so raising a standing local paramilitary must be, too.

Oh, I almost forgot. Moving on.
 
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Citizen

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Regarding police commandeering a home, I recall an anecdote I read some years ago. Gun magazine, I think, but can't recall.

Basically, a man was driving with wife and child on a rural road. A cop stopped him, and required him to park in the travel portion of the road. Moments later, a car came around the corner or over the rise, narrowly missing their car, with another police car in hot pursuit. Essentially, the GD cop used him as an attempted roadblock.

I'm wondering something. Why do we need a constitution or law in order to restrain government into being decent? I mean really--are these people so screwed up that we need a law to make them behave decently? And, if we do, then why do we employ them in the first place?

Give me a break, already.
 
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eye95

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[insulting diatribe redacted]

There is no requirement for you to be respectful. However, when you respond to a post the presents an opinion by addressing the person who wrote it, rather than what he said, you do nothing to increase the stature of your argument or to decrease the credibility of the argument that you are avoiding addressing.

The fact remains that the existence of local and State LEAs is simply not a constitutional issue. It is just not the purview of the US Constitution to dictate to the States and their subdivisions whether or not they will have agencies to enforce their own laws. Thinking like that is the hierarchical thinking that is destroying the actual Constitution. The feds don't run the States. The intent of the Constitution was quite the reverse. The States were supposed to be in charge. They turned over 18 very specific powers to the federal government, and the federal government dictating how States and localities enforce their laws, through the Constitution or otherwise, was not one of them.

Feel free to move on and not address this very simple idea.
 

eye95

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Regarding police commandeering a home, I recall an anecdote I read some years ago. Gun magazine, I think, but can't recall.

Basically, a man was driving with wife and child on a rural road. A cop stopped him, and required him to park in the travel portion of the road. Moments later, a car came around the corner or over the rise, narrowly missing their car, with another police car in hot pursuit. Essentially, the GD cop used him as an attempted roadblock.

I'm wondering something. Why do we need a constitution or law in order to restrain government into being decent? I mean really--are these people so screwed up that we need a law to make them behave decently? And, if we do, then why do we employ them in the first place?

Give me a break, already.

No doubt that officers do things that violate the rights of citizens, making those acts violations of the Constitution. However, that does not make the LEAs or cops in general unconstitutional.

The specific examples cited, commandeering a home and forcing a citizen to park his car in the lane of travel are despicable violations of citizens' rights.
 

georg jetson

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The fact remains that the existence of local and State LEAs is simply not a constitutional issue. It is just not the purview of the US Constitution to dictate to the States and their subdivisions whether or not they will have agencies to enforce their own laws. Thinking like that is the hierarchical thinking that is destroying the actual Constitution. The feds don't run the States. The intent of the Constitution was quite the reverse. The States were supposed to be in charge. They turned over 18 very specific powers to the federal government, and the federal government dictating how States and localities enforce their laws, through the Constitution or otherwise, was not one of them.

All law enforcement agencies receive grants from the fed government. They are federal troops and very much unconstitutional.
 

eye95

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I can't believe I cited actual case law and precedent regarding incorporation of the 3rd amendment and every instead wants to bash cops and go off on silly tangents...

Threads do that. Someone makes a tangential comment (in this case about cops being unconstitutional), and folks end up discussing that comment.

The original topic won't generate as much discussion since I don't think there is anyone who posts here who would not take issue with what the cops did in this case. Distaste for what they did is essentially uncontroversial on OCDO. Personally, though, I don't see this as a 3A issue, but that does not make what they did any less of a rights violation as they egregiously infringed scads of God-given (or natural, if your prefer) and enumerated rights.
 

Citizen

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SNIP The specific examples cited, commandeering a home and forcing a citizen to park his car in the lane of travel are despicable violations of citizens' rights.

Let me ask you a question. All readers, in fact.

After 4500 years of recorded history in the West of government depredations, including some 20 million killed by government in the 20th century, who---WHO?--can possibly not expect despicable violations of citizen's rights?

WHO? is so pollyanna as to think they can grant or consent to a monopoly on force extending to every human being and then pretend that despicable violations of citizens' rights is not guaranteed?

WHO? is so pollyanna as to think that one can separate force monopoly extended onto everyone while pretending that the very "law" that pretends to grant that power will also prevent abuses? Its like a mechanic who soops-up a car then pretends it won't be driven as fast as capable. Who can still believe that government won't turn and devour its subjects? Who can still believe government is supposed to do this, but not that, and actually will?

After 4500 years of history? WHO?
 

Citizen

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When you chill back down, I'll resume discussions with you. For the moment, I just don't see value in it.

When you stop pretending you can reasonably expect villains to restrain themselves after handing them that kind of power, I'll listen.

"Oh, lets just give a bunch of hard men power. They won't abuse it. And when they do we'll blame them for the abuses because we couldn't possibly have seen it coming."

Tell me again how anybody can claim its criminal for a knucklehead to shoot up in the air and fail to think about the consequences when the bullet comes down again, but its not criminal at all to afflict every single person with government when the consequences are just as predictable as that falling bullet.
 
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georg jetson

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Funny you should ask.

"'Under the criminal justice model known to the framers, professional police officers were unknown,' [Dr. Roger] Roots writes."

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/...ro&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email

Also, if you want some really surprising information, google the white paper Are Cops Constitutional by Dr. Roger Roots. All I can say about it is wow.

I'd hate for anyone to miss the link to this excellent article. Thanks Citizen.
 

Gil223

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I can't believe I cited actual case law and precedent regarding incorporation of the 3rd amendment and every instead wants to bash cops and go off on silly tangents...
Perhaps it is because the Engblom vs Carey lawsuit applied to housing provided by the NY State government, and the CO's suit was unsuccessful. As best I can determine - and I have looked - there has never been a successful case brought under 3A. I believe that, basically, the court said that 3A can't apply when the housing is employer provided and the occupants thereof cease to function as employees. Not only "legal", but for a change, the ruling even makes common sense!

Although in many instances (especially in the metro areas) the police have adopted the techniques of a paramilitary organization, they do not yet qualify as "soldiers", nor does any law justify their actions in invading the homes of LAC's without a warrant, evicting them without due process, or arresting them because they don't joyfully cooperate in that eviction. Section 8 of the Nevada State Constitution provides that:
Sec. 8.  Rights of accused in criminal prosecutions; jeopardy; rights of victims of crime; due process of law; eminent domain. 5.  No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

6.  Private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation having been first made, or secured, except in cases of war, riot, fire, or great public peril, in which case compensation shall be afterward made.

[Amended in 1912 and 1996. The first amendment was proposed and passed by the 1909 legislature; agreed to and passed by the 1911 legislature; and approved and ratified by the people at the 1912 general election. See: Statutes of Nevada 1909, p. 346; Statutes of Nevada 1911, p. 454. The second amendment was proposed and passed by the 1993 legislature; agreed to and passed by the 1995 legislature; and approved and ratified by the people at the 1996 general election. See: Statutes of Nevada 1993, p. 3065; Statutes of Nevada 1995, p. 2880.] (Emphases added by myself)
The U.S Constitution notwithstanding, their own state constitution insures the same protections... where were those protections when the Clark County KGB/FSB arrived? Pax...
 

EMNofSeattle

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Perhaps it is because the Engblom vs Carey lawsuit applied to housing provided by the NY State government, and the CO's suit was unsuccessful. As best I can determine - and I have looked - there has never been a successful case brought under 3A. I believe that, basically, the court said that 3A can't apply when the housing is employer provided and the occupants thereof cease to function as employees. Not only "legal", but for a change, the ruling even makes common sense!

Read the ruling the, Court DID rule that the officers were covered under the third as they were "tenants" under the terms of their leases with the state and thus the state of new york violated their third amendment rights.

The reason the COs "lost" was because upon remand the district court ruled that Government Carey was covered by qualified immunity because he had violated no clearly established law as there was no existing 3A precedent. however this only applied to wether financial damages were warranted, the 2nd circuit validated the complaint as a 3rd amendment issue
 

EMNofSeattle

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From the ruling in Engblom v. Carey

Applying these principles, as a matter of state law appellants throughout the strike had a lawful interest in their living quarters sufficient to entitle them to exclude others. Appellants' interest, moreover, reasonably entitled them to a legitimate expectation of privacy protected by the Third Amendment. Appellants' rooms, which they furnished and for which they were charged a monthly rent, were their homes. They did not maintain separate residences or have alternative housing available in the event of an emergency. During the entire two-year period preceding the strike, appellants did not reside in any other dwelling. These factors supporting the existence of a tenancy-type interest are reinforced by the Department's Directive and Rules, which repeatedly refer to the occupants as tenants and at one place to Mid-Orange as the equivalent of a landlord....Viewing the facts in the light most favorable to appellants, we cannot rule out an inference that the Rules signed by both the Superintendent and appellants was tantamount to a lease.

On this record we cannot agree with the district court's finding that appellants' occupancy was more analogous to a possession incident to employment, which under New York law does not constitute a landlord-tenant relationship.....

We conclude, therefore, that in the context of a motion for summary judgment the record, viewed most favorably to appellants, does not preclude a finding that they had a substantial tenancy interest in their staff housing, and that they enjoyed significant privacy due to their right to exclude others from what were functionally their homes.... Accordingly, since we cannot say that as a matter of law appellants were not entitled to the protection of the Third Amendment, we reverse the summary dismissal of their Third Amendment claim.....
 

Gil223

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Read the ruling the, Court DID rule that the officers were covered under the third as they were "tenants" under the terms of their leases with the state and thus the state of new york violated their third amendment rights.

The reason the COs "lost" was because upon remand the district court ruled that Government Carey was covered by qualified immunity because he had violated no clearly established law as there was no existing 3A precedent. however this only applied to wether financial damages were warranted, the 2nd circuit validated the complaint as a 3rd amendment issue

Okay... I take back what I said about the ruling making "common sense". ;) Pax...
 

sudden valley gunner

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SVG, don't really want to be OT. just know it doesn't matter what you believe. the US constitution only goes as far as the US borders, there is actual case where even if you are not a US citizen but on US soil, you are covered by the constitution. now a US citizen on foreign soil has no protection from the US constitution.

same reason the federal government can order you killed without trial on foreign soil. they want to do it on US soil too

Cite? It mentions it's the job of the Feds to guard the borders, but the restrictions on the federal government does not limit it to only respect rights within our borders. And there is no enumerated power for them to infringe upon rights of foreigners.

So it isn't just "what I believe"....;)
 
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tattedupboy

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Interestingly enough, a Third Amendment case has never gone before the Supreme Court. This would make a great test case for 3A, both in determining if it applies to the states, and if police are considered "soldiers" under it.

Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk HD
 
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