Man beaten, robbed while eating at mall

[jimwyant]

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peter nap wrote:

<SNIP> It's hard to come up with rules of engagement that fit all. <SNIP>

This is why we need to codify Stand Your Ground or something similar in VA.

 

[possumboy]

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Northalius wrote:

Tell that to a police officer who's being beat up by four people at the same time. He has every rightin pulling out his gun and using it, when he feels his life is in danger; police officers aren't special, they're not higher than a citizen... therefore citizens have that same exact right to defend their lives with deadly force, when they feel their life is in danger of being lost.

When four people are punching andSTOMPING (legs are very powerful...)on you, including theclear and very imminentprobability of them stomping on your face and skull, driving theminto the ground, and thus causing grave injury or even death; anyone going through thishas a RIGHT (not just some privilege) to shoot and stop the attackers doing this to them.

All the jury has to use, is their brain. Tell them if they're currently getting stomped on, and punched severely, would they think "This must be just a good ol' fashioned @#%$whoopin'! Oh gee golly! These guys! You just want my wallet! Ah,stupid me! I'm so forgetful sometimes!" <--- ??? LOL! I don't THINK so. No one should physically lay a hand on you, or else they've crossed the line; it's their fault, not the fault of theone defending themselves from the attack.

There's also a good saying: "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

Small correction: As shown with DANBUS, the officers do not need to be under attack before they are justified in "drawning". It is perfectly acceptable for a LEO to drawn when they think they may be attacked.AZ has a bill related to this, allowing you to "brandish" in self-defense. I've had LEO tell me I must be dangerous because I carry a gun. I've only replied poorly once - it had been a long day. I had to break out my credentials to get out of that one.

Also, I hear "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6." so many times. The majority -not all- of those are still in lockup. I believe a lot of them were defending themselves against another criminal. Meaning, if they had not been engaged in criminal activities, they would not been in the situation to kill in self-defense.

I'm hoping this never applies to us here.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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cloudcroft wrote:

Don't mess with seniors, they will kill you straight away...they have to for their OWN personal safety! -- John D.

Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill every time.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$

 

[Grapeshot]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill every time.

Gar -an-teed!
yata hey

 

[TheEggman]

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Mall Policy ...

• The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc.

In VA, Open Carry, or C.C. w/ a permit is NOT a criminal act so this 'rule' appears not to apply to Law Abididng Citizens.

 

[SouthernBoy]

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ChinChin wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote

Excellent point and something I have agonized over many times. Suppose you pull your weapon and the perps stop. Then one of them says, "MF's got a gun. Ok tough boy.. whatcha gonna do now? Shoot me? MF ain't gonna do nothing." as he is walking towards you.

SB broaches a very valid point. To pull your weapon, you must be in fear for your immediate safety or the safety to your loved ones. To fire your weapon at another individual, you or your loved ones must be in immediate fear that you are about to suffer grievous bodily harm and/or death.

After pulling your handgun and yelling loudly (to gain witnesses along with notification) to the attacker to cease and desist they STILL advance upon you, despite a firearm being aimed at their 10-ring, it can be safely deduced the attacker isn't approaching to offer his hand and an apology. They are going to attack. If they attack and get your handgun from you, chances are extremely favorable they will use the gun against you. Before this happens you need to do what you need to do to stop and control the situation.

If somebody is trying to kill you, you try and kill them right back!

I should have added to my post about this portion of the topic that when you pull your weapon and loudly shout for them to stop and leave you alone (or something to that affect), you are doing this for several reasons. To get them to stop unexpected - they are not used to this kind of reaction from a soon-to-be victim. To see your weapon while there is still time for them to leave immediately (one of the four could miss it and attack you). To gain witnesses by your actions. And lastly (perhaps most important) to establish a point at which you are not going to allow them to continue their advance (you should already have decided this before pulling).

Once you pull down on them, you should be in the frame of mind that if they continue their attack, or stop for an instant then come at you, you will open fire. Do this while there is still enough room between them and you to allow you to deliver effective fire (you don't want to wait until they're 10 feet away unless you have no other choice - then you might want to fire first).

Keep the comments coming people. I believe that this thread is one of the more important ones currently active on this site because it discusses real world scenarios and could be most helpful to a member.

 

[doug23838]

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

While you did not imply firearm usage would be appropriate, I think it's important to point out that in this case it wouldn't be. The attackers did not produce a deadly weapon, and therefore the victim, had he used a firearm to defend himself would be in a heap of trouble.

Why would you puposely disadvantge yourself? As I understand it, you would wait until your opponent(s), had drawn a gun(s), and (possibly) begun sight alignment on you before drawing your gun.

At that point you are way behind. You need to be inside the opponents OODA loop causing them to react to you not the other way around. As good guys we're always in react mode and therefore always a moment behind the perp. This is where slipping into white brings trouble.

Sarcasticly I say: Why not wait for them to squeeze off a few rounds so you can be certain of their intent to harm? It could be they just want to intimidate with the display of the gun.

Draw the gun. Shoot in tactical sequence.

As for this guy at the mall. As others mentioned, he was way to deep in white and the questions should have pulled him to yellow.

 

[PT111]

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You drop by the 7-11 about 10:00 at night to pick up a moonpie, coca-cola and some cigaretts. Whil paying for them you hear the bomma-booma-booma of a car drive up and it parks where you can't see it from the inside the store. Four young black guys fully dressed with all the bling walk in and one stops blocking the door. Two walk on over and stand on each side of you. The third one walks back to the cooler in the back of the store.

The one on your right side says, "Looks like the homey here has a gun and looks like a Glock". The other one says, "I sure could use a Glock, is it a 40". The first one says, Yep, homey, you gonna shoot somebody wid dat Glock? Me I rather have the ***** behind the counter." About that time the third one walks up with two six-packs and throws some money on the counter and says, "***** keep the change". All four start laughing and walk out but one turns and says. "Now you know howda brothers feel aroung the KKK".

What do you do now? Dial 911 or ask for the key to the restroom and an extra roll of toliet paper? Maybe you pull your Glock and make a quick exit to to car a get out of there? What would be your actions in this scenario?

 

[TheEggman]

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PT111 wrote:

You drop by the 7-11 about 10:00 at night

... Two walk on over and stand on each side of you ...

That part of the scenario wouldn't happen. As soon as I felt a potential threat (blocked door, or perhaps sooner) I would position myself to not be at a tactical disadvantage.

IOW, I always endeavor to avoid situations in which I'm 'boxed in.' On the highway, and at the 7-11.

BTW Black and Bling isn't an automatic red flag, but stance, circumstance and attitude are.

Now if you substituted Gang Colors for Bling ...


Stay Safe

Egg

 

[Doug Huffman]

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TheEggman wrote:

BTW Black and Bling isn't an automatic red flag, but stance, circumstance and attitude are.

Welcome to No. Charleston, SC, 'Chuckton'.

Black and bling is Condition Orange. In a "convenience" store with the windows papered over with sale notices, I be gone!

Black and tan is Condition Orange for some with much more experience of terrorism than ours.

 

[Northalius]

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possumboy wrote:

Northalius wrote:

Tell that to a police officer who's being beat up by four people at the same time. He has every rightin pulling out his gun and using it, when he feels his life is in danger; police officers aren't special, they're not higher than a citizen... therefore citizens have that same exact right to defend their lives with deadly force, when they feel their life is in danger of being lost.

When four people are punching andSTOMPING (legs are very powerful...)on you, including theclear and very imminentprobability of them stomping on your face and skull, driving theminto the ground, and thus causing grave injury or even death; anyone going through thishas a RIGHT (not just some privilege) to shoot and stop the attackers doing this to them.

All the jury has to use, is their brain. Tell them if they're currently getting stomped on, and punched severely, would they think "This must be just a good ol' fashioned @#%$whoopin'! Oh gee golly! These guys! You just want my wallet! Ah,stupid me! I'm so forgetful sometimes!" <--- ??? LOL! I don't THINK so. No one should physically lay a hand on you, or else they've crossed the line; it's their fault, not the fault of theone defending themselves from the attack.

There's also a good saying: "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

Small correction: As shown with DANBUS, the officers do not need to be under attack before they are justified in "drawning". It is perfectly acceptable for a LEO to drawn when they think they may be attacked.AZ has a bill related to this, allowing you to "brandish" in self-defense. I've had LEO tell me I must be dangerous because I carry a gun. I've only replied poorly once - it had been a long day. I had to break out my credentials to get out of that one.

Also, I hear "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6." so many times. The majority -not all- of those are still in lockup. I believe a lot of them were defending themselves against another criminal. Meaning, if they had not been engaged in criminal activities, they would not been in the situation to kill in self-defense.

I'm hoping this never applies to us here.

Of course I agree; anyone (including private citizens)can pulla gun out before these criminalstouch him/her. In my original post,I was just giving the example of if it (a beating)already happening out of no where, and what we have a right to do then.

I don't know how many peoplestill locked up are actuallyinnocent or not, but that still doesn't make my quoteany less relevant.

I, personally, am not going to be worried about what some jury will think in a month or two, while presently2-3 guys come at me, attempting to beat / kill me. I take imminent threats to my life out first, then worry about what comes next, later. One step at a time.

If a police officer has every right to defend themselves with a gun, then so do I (let's all read and remember the 2nd Amendment, which is among the highestlaw in this nation). A police officer's life is not worth more than my life, nor vice versa. We're both humans, simply with different occuptations. We both have our right to life, and to be defended by our own rightful ownership offirearms, as seen in the 2nd Amendment...plain and simple. We both have to be judged by a jury later on, and so be it.


So, any officer that says I'm dangerous, is correct. I'm dangerous to any criminal that seeks to do me physical harm, or break into my house and attack my familly or myself. The 2nd Amendment gives me my 'rightful danger' toward criminals... private and government.

 

[BobCav]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

TheEggman wrote:

BTW Black and Bling isn't an automatic red flag, but stance, circumstance and attitude are.

Welcome to No. Charleston, SC, 'Chuckton'.

Black and bling is Condition Orange. In a "convenience" store with the windows papered over with sale notices, I be gone!

Black and tan is Condition Orange for some with much more experience of terrorism than ours.

Now I'm thirsty.....

 

[Tomahawk]

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BobCav wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

TheEggman wrote:

BTW Black and Bling isn't an automatic red flag, but stance, circumstance and attitude are.

Welcome to No. Charleston, SC, 'Chuckton'.

Black and bling is Condition Orange. In a "convenience" store with the windows papered over with sale notices, I be gone!

Black and tan is Condition Orange for some with much more experience of terrorism than ours.

Now I'm thirsty.....

And a pizza would go nice with that.