McDonalds, Now Serving Justice

[Jack House]

He didn't use deadly force. He used force to stop an unlawful attack that he tried to avoid by fleeing to the otherside of the store. It doesn't really matter if all they did was slap him. He removed himself, they pursued.

Let us not forget who it was that ran and who it was that jumped the counter.

 

[Grapeshot]

Isn't that what the threat is? A threat to life/body or serious harm/injury? You continue till you stop the threat?

Nope, not hardly.

Threaten to slap (assault) or actually slap (assault & battery), constitute neither.

He didn't use deadly force. He used force to stop an unlawful attack that he tried to avoid by fleeing to the otherside of the store. It doesn't really matter if all they did was slap him. He removed himself, they pursued.

Let us not forget who it was that ran and who it was that jumped the counter.

Never said he did - there are those that will twist a phrase or avoid the context.

 

[RetiredOC]

Nope, not hardly.

Threaten to slap (assault) or actually slap (assault & battery), constitute neither.

Then it comes down to this, you were just slapped, you pushed back and used that time to retreat, now 2 people have just jumped the counter and are approaching you...WHAT TO DO!?

 

[Grapeshot]

Then it comes down to this, you were just slapped, you pushed back and used that time to retreat, now 2 people have just jumped the counter and are approaching you...WHAT TO DO!?

It doesn't come down to anything for me personally and I do not engage in "what if' scenarios on-line.

Each circumstance must be evaluated/decided by those involved and then perhaps by the courts - the latter will produce more weight.

 

[Skeptic]

Dang, removed by youtube.

 

[Redbaron007]

Since this story seems to be one diminsional (video only), I will reserve judgement.

Concerned why the employee is charged with a felony, while the customers may be facing only misdemeanor charges. There is more to the story. The devil is in the details.

 

[RetiredOC]

It doesn't come down to anything for me personally and I do not engage in "what if' scenarios on-line.

Each circumstance must be evaluated/decided by those involved and then perhaps by the courts - the latter will produce more weight.

It's not a what if...it WAS the situation the cashier was in.

 

[MKEgal]

...much less to actually feel that any minor physical confrontation deserves potentially deadly force...

We do not know if the moment the two punks went down if they laid there peaceably and begged forgiveness, or if they were telling him that the moment they got up his ass was dead.
...
Being confronted with superior numbers

It's 2 on 1, the 2 started the fight, the 1 retreated & was pursued.
True, the one gals arm & skull were broken.
But would you really think that 2 people who had just assaulted you (apparently for questioning whether their money was real) & continued the attack would stop at slapping you around?
2 on 1. And I bet they didn't lie still; I bet they were trying to continue the attack.
Hopefully there's a behind-the-counter camera.

The manager was standing there just watching.

Way to support your employees! Jerk.
At a minumum, intervene to stop the attack, which would stop the defense.

most large corporations like this have an absolute zero tolerance policy for violence, this includes clear cases of self defense.

Such stupid policies.
My school has a similar policy - no violence, period, & they consider self-defense to be fighting.
There's even a snide remark in the student handbook about people fighting, then "claiming self-defense". It says someone may get a lighter punishment if they really were acting in self-defense, but since they admit to fighting, they will get some punishment.

Deadly force may be justified to protect life and body from death or serious harm/injury - not "to stop a threat" absent the other qualifiers.
...
It has been reported that one woman suffered a broken arm and severe face lacerations - for what a slap, or in response to a greater level of threat?

2 on 1.
The 2 started the fight, for no good reason - questioning the money.
The 2 attackers pursued after the victim retreated.

The CNN article also has the video.
And there's this little gem:

The franchise owner Carmen Paulino told CNN affiliate WABC...
"I am extremely disturbed by the events captured on tape and am concerned for those injured," Paulino said. "The actions of this individual are unacceptable and not characteristic of my employees."
McDonald's also released a statement, saying the franchisee is cooperating with the investigation.
"The violence in this video is alarming and reprehensible," it said.

But he's not concerned enough to support his employee who defended himself against that "alarming & reprehensible" violence.

Oh, wait - he meant the self-defense was "alarming & reprehensible". :cuss:

The cashier would pause and begin again every time the women tried to get up.

There you go - they weren't through attacking.

 

[Grapeshot]

Then it comes down to this, you were just slapped, you pushed back and used that time to retreat, now 2 people have just jumped the counter and are approaching you...WHAT TO DO!?

It doesn't come down to anything for me personally and I do not engage in "what if' scenarios on-line.

Each circumstance must be evaluated/decided by those involved and then perhaps by the courts - the latter will produce more weight.

It's not a what if...it WAS the situation the cashier was in.

Indeed you did propose (unintentionally?) that I hypothesize/suppose (what if) with the use of the pronoun "you".

The last quote is your interpretation of what you think "WAS" the situation. Did the employee retreat (withdraw from the engagement) or did he advance to the rear to gain a weapon and reenter the field of combat unnecessarily? We oft recommend quitting the field/running away rather than to further complicate the issue. Seems to me that might be relevant here.

Still I do not know enough to even entertain a pronounced opinion nor offer a definitive statement as to what transpired there that day.

 

[Morbidph8]

The guy that grabbed his arm is not a manager. The manager was standing there just watching.

I couldn't hear what the employee said, so I can't say anything about his firing. I can say this, most large corporations like this have an absolute zero tolerance policy for violence, this includes clear cases of self defense. These policies ought to be criminal. It is ridiculous that the law demands tight restrictions on anything that can even remotely be considered racist or sexist on the job, but does not protect the right to self defense on the job even in it's most basic forms.

If you have ever worked retail. You know that you as an employee cannot do anything, to protect yourself, or stop a crime. You will be fired. No matter what. The reason.... Because your employer might be sued.

I used to work at Blockbuster. It was around X-mas time. A guy had a stack of PS2/Xbox games. He walks right up to the counter and says. "What are you going to do about it?" As he walks to the door. I smiled and said "Nothing."

Of course even working in retail. If my life is in danger. I have no problem losing my job to protect myself.

I hope the McDonald's worker gets a good lawyer.

 

[McX]

dang, i went to see the video, and it was gone.........i miss all the good stuff

 

[skidmark]

dang, i went to see the video, and it was gone.........i miss all the good stuff

Sure! Expect some criminal to keep documentation of their criminal behavior up on the internet where everybody can see it. Wanna bet their public defender (not knocking public defenders - they are generally good guys as opposed to purpously malicious) told them to take it down?

The nice thing is that once something goes on the internet it is pretty much there forever. http://cybernetnews.com/find-removed-youtube-videosdownload-your-favorites/

Good hunting.

stay safe.

 

[RetiredOC]

dang, i went to see the video, and it was gone.........i miss all the good stuff

Just for you, I found another upload and modified the OP.

 

[McX]

Schlitz.............wow............that was REAL entertainment. loved the blonde bimbo yelling stop. ofcourse she wasnt on the other side of the counter, or the ones being attacked. i gotta go eat there sometime, maybe make mine to go?

added on edit; watched it yet again, must have been filmed in like Bahrain or someplace like that. You want a free whipping with your coke?

 

[Jack House]

If you have ever worked retail. You know that you as an employee cannot do anything, to protect yourself, or stop a crime. You will be fired. No matter what. The reason.... Because your employer might be sued.

I used to work at Blockbuster. It was around X-mas time. A guy had a stack of PS2/Xbox games. He walks right up to the counter and says. "What are you going to do about it?" As he walks to the door. I smiled and said "Nothing."

Of course even working in retail. If my life is in danger. I have no problem losing my job to protect myself.

I hope the McDonald's worker gets a good lawyer.

That's what I said. I know they are worried about lawsuits. It actually makes perfectly good business sense. I wonder what would happen if someone in a similar situation sued for being fired.

Still, want to have policy demanding your employees cooperate with robbers? Fine. But don't make policies demanding that they must never defend themselves when attacked unless you are going to have armed security their to guard them at all times. Personally, if someone wants to rob my employer, I wont stop them. They can have whatever they want. I'll be sure to remember faces and features to give a good description to the police after they've left. But it's not worth my risking bodily injury or death. If they attack me, or want my personally property, they're going to have a fight on their hands.

My employer isn't going to cover my losses and they'll do anything they can to weasel out of having to pay my medical expenses.

@MKEGal:

I agree completely about the manager. You're responsible for the safety and well being of those you are placed in charge of, not just giving them orders. And I have gone to bat many times in instances like this. From breaking up fights to knocking someone on their ass, to going to the police/authorities.

I also agree about the school policies. It's self defeating in that, teaching a child that it is always wrong to fight, no matter the circumstance makes them even greater targets for bullies.

 

[RetiredOC]

That's what I said. I know they are worried about lawsuits. It actually makes perfectly good business sense. I wonder what would happen if someone in a similar situation sued for being fired.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fire...n-pharmacist-filled-robbers/story?id=13705438

Employee fires gun and forces armed thugs to retreat, saving the lives of the coworkers and customers. He was fired for saving their lives and has filed a suit for his termination.

 

[RetiredOC]

bumping for video

these punks act like they're so damn tough till bullets start flying their way. This guy was fired? What a joke.

[video=youtube;6cGYpxH4QJE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cGYpxH4QJE[/video]

 

[Grapeshot]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fire...n-pharmacist-filled-robbers/story?id=13705438

Employee fires gun and forces armed thugs to retreat, saving the lives of the coworkers and customers. He was fired for saving their lives and has filed a suit for his termination.

Previously reported and discussed here

No need to take this thread OT. If you want to discuss multiple such incidents, then a separate thread to that end would be more appropriate.

 

[HKcarrier]

Grapeshot.. you're usually a pretty stand up dude... I"m sorry to see you take such a position.

2 vs 1.
Pursing the victim.
Entering unauthorized area.
Probably plenty of verbal threats of great harm or worse.

They clearly meant business, women, or 13 year olds... if they pull out a knife, you could be dead. At that point they had shown their intent and their lack of self control. I don't think the guy did anything wrong based on the fact that we couldn't see what was happening behind the counter. THey could have been still swinging, kicking, grabbing or otherwise attacking him.

He swung until he thought they were neutralized. They moved again, he swung again.

Now if they were laying there motionless and he was whaling away on them, yes... over the line... but if they were still trying to get up, there's no telling what could have happened. THey could have produced a knife... a gun... OC spray... who knows.

 

[Jack House]

I agree, if having to fight someone in self defense, I do not want them getting back up until police arrive.

Posted using my HTC Evo