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Michigan State Police Search Cell Phones During Traffic Stops

warrior1978

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Tis is what Supreme Court said in part in this case:

"Held:
1. The order to get out of the car, issued after the respondent was lawfully detained, was reasonable, and thus permissible under the Fourth Amendment."

You see, this guy was"lawfully detained" because "a large bulge under his jacket was noticed by the officer" (RAS). Therefore, order to get out of the car was permissible under Fourth Amendment. Police needs something more than just civil infraction (legally not a crime) to have RAS of a crime. Then, you can be ordered out of the car. This Supreme Court decision would not apply to just a civil infraction. So, my question stands.

No, he was lawfully detained because of the traffic stop which was for an expired plate. If you are speeding (civil infraction) and stopped, you are "detained". Detained means you are not free to leave. If you are asked to exit a vehicle during a traffic stop for a civil infraction and you fail to do so, you will be arrested for R&O, resist and obstruct.

Further, here is a quote from a Michigan Appeals Court decision. Michigan v. Chapo 2009.
A police officer may order occupants to get out of a vehicle, pending the completion of a
traffic stop, without violating the Fourth Amendment’s proscription against unreasonable
searches and seizures. Pennsylvania v Mimms, 434 US 106, 111; 98 S Ct 330; 54 L Ed 2d 331
(1977); Maryland v Wilson, 519 US 408, 414-415; 117 S Ct 882; 137 L Ed 2d 41 (1997).
 
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sasha601

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You know, I think you have a point here. I'll just bet this exact question has not come before a federal appellate court, yet.

However, I also bet the court will rely on PA vs Mimms. I'm betting the court will say that even though it is only a civil infraction, a cop is authorized to seize a person for a civil infraction. And, a seizure it is governed by 4A. And, since it is governed by 4A, it is controlled by SCOTUS precedent in that area, and--we're back to PA vs Mimms.

You see, its not the seriousness of the offense behind the seizure. Its the possibility of danger to the officer.

My crystal ball told me all that. Plus, it whispered that the courts quite often side with cops and more government power.

Unless there is a RAS of a crime, then where is concern for officers's safety? If I am only stopped for civil infraction, and in the course of my interaction with officers no RAS of a crime developed, then why would I be legally required to exit my car even if officer orders me to do so? If I shot off the engine, put keys on the dashboard and keep my hands on the wheel, then how would officer be in danger? Again, is anything in Michigan Law that requires me to exit my car in these circumstances?
 

sasha601

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No, he was lawfully detained because of the traffic stop which was for an expired plate. If you are speeding (civil infraction) and stopped, you are "detained". Detained means you are not free to leave. If you are asked to exit a vehicle during a traffic stop for a civil infraction and you fail to do so, you will be arrested for R&O, resist and obstruct.

Further, here is a quote from a Michigan Appeals Court decision. Michigan v. Chapo 2009.
A police officer may order occupants to get out of a vehicle, pending the completion of a
traffic stop, without violating the Fourth Amendment’s proscription against unreasonable
searches and seizures. Pennsylvania v Mimms, 434 US 106, 111; 98 S Ct 330; 54 L Ed 2d 331
(1977); Maryland v Wilson, 519 US 408, 414-415; 117 S Ct 882; 137 L Ed 2d 41 (1997).

He was detained because of the "bulge". Traffic stop for civil infraction does not reach level of legal "detainment". For example, when suspect detained, officer has a right to frisk search you foe weapons. When stopped for civil infraction, officer has no right to frisk search. He needs more. He needs RAS of a crime.
 

warrior1978

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He was detained because of the "bulge". Traffic stop for civil infraction does not reach level of legal "detainment". For example, when suspect detained, officer has a right to frisk search you foe weapons. When stopped for civil infraction, officer has no right to frisk search. He needs more. He needs RAS of a crime.


Actually, all persons in a vehicle that is traffic stopped are seized. Brendlin v. California.

So in summary:
Brendlin v. California establishes that everyone in a vehicle on a traffic stop are seized.

Then PA v. Mimms and Maryland v. Wilson establish that an officer may order people out of the vehicle.

And your question is what Michigan law requires you to exit a vehicle on traffic stop if told to by an officer. The answer is the Michigan Penal Code, specifically "Resist and Obstruct a lawful order". It is a lawful order based on U.S Supreme Court decisions.

The case law is clear whether it is a misdemeanor or civil infraction traffic stop.
 
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Citizen

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Tis is what Supreme Court said in part in this case:

"Held:
1. The order to get out of the car, issued after the respondent was lawfully detained, was reasonable, and thus permissible under the Fourth Amendment."

You see, this guy was"lawfully detained" because "a large bulge under his jacket was noticed by the officer" (RAS). Therefore, order to get out of the car was permissible under Fourth Amendment. Police needs something more than just civil infraction (legally not a crime) to have RAS of a crime. Then, you can be ordered out of the car. This Supreme Court decision would not apply to just a civil infraction. So, my question stands.

I disagree with your analysis. And, your facts. Lets start with the facts. Here is what the court said as to the timing of the seizure, the order to step out, and the gun being noticed:

The facts are not in dispute. While on routine patrol, two Philadelphia police officers observed respondent Harry Mimms driving an automobile with an expired license plate. The officers stopped the vehicle for the purpose of issuing a traffic summons. One of the officers approached and asked respondent to step out of the car and produce his owner's card and operator's license. Respondent alighted, whereupon the officer noticed a large bulge under respondent's sports jacket.

Plainly the seizure occurred before the gun was noticed.

Now, as to your "question still stands." Your arrogance does not impress me. We are not your research assistants. You got a question, go look up the answer yourself. But, just for other readers, here is some of that answer. It is contained right in that section of summary you lopped off your quote:

The State's proffered justification for such order -- the officer's safety -- is both legitimate and weighty, and the intrusion into respondent's personal liberty occasioned by the order, being, at most, a mere inconvenience, cannot prevail when balanced against legitimate concerns for the officer's safety.

For Sasha: read the rest of the opinion. It talks at length about officer safety. And the lower court's court opinion that SCOTUS was about to overturn:

But the court nonetheless thought the search constitutionally infirm because the officer's order to respondent to get out of the car was an impermissible "seizure." This was so because the officer could not point to "objective observable facts to support a suspicion that criminal activity was afoot or that the occupants of the vehicle posed a threat to police safety." Since this unconstitutional intrusion led directly to observance of the bulge and to the subsequent "pat down," the revolver was the fruit of an unconstitutional search, and, in the view of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, should have been suppressed. We do not agree with this conclusion. (emphasis added by Citizen).

And, just in case you don't read the opinion, here is the nail in your argument's coffin:

We are aware that not all these assaults occur when issuing traffic summons, but we have before expressly declined to accept the argument that traffic violations necessarily involve less danger to officers than other types of confrontations. United States v. Robinson

So, my answer, and the previous posters' answer about PA v Mimms still stands.

You're welcome.
 
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sasha601

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Rochester Hills, Michigan, USA
No, he was lawfully detained because of the traffic stop which was for an expired plate. If you are speeding (civil infraction) and stopped, you are "detained". Detained means you are not free to leave. If you are asked to exit a vehicle during a traffic stop for a civil infraction and you fail to do so, you will be arrested for R&O, resist and obstruct.

Further, here is a quote from a Michigan Appeals Court decision. Michigan v. Chapo 2009.
A police officer may order occupants to get out of a vehicle, pending the completion of a
traffic stop, without violating the Fourth Amendment’s proscription against unreasonable
searches and seizures. Pennsylvania v Mimms, 434 US 106, 111; 98 S Ct 330; 54 L Ed 2d 331
(1977); Maryland v Wilson, 519 US 408, 414-415; 117 S Ct 882; 137 L Ed 2d 41 (1997).

I just read Michigan v. Chapo. There was more than just civil infraction. He guy was stopped for running over firefighters water hose - civil infraction. Then, he tried to flee a police officer. Only then he was ordered out of the car because officer already made decision to arrest him. Again, simple traffic stop for civil infraction does not reach level of a crime that is present in both, Pennsylvania v Mimms and Michigan v. Chapo. There is no court cases or Michigan Law from what I can see that would require citizen to exit car when the only reason for traffic stop is civil infraction. Can someone site a Michigan Law that would require to exit car in these circumstances?
 

sasha601

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Rochester Hills, Michigan, USA
I disagree with your analysis. And, your facts. Lets start with the facts. Here is what the court said as to the timing of the seizure, the order to step out, and the gun being noticed:

The facts are not in dispute. While on routine patrol, two Philadelphia police officers observed respondent Harry Mimms driving an automobile with an expired license plate. The officers stopped the vehicle for the purpose of issuing a traffic summons. One of the officers approached and asked respondent to step out of the car and produce his owner's card and operator's license. Respondent alighted, whereupon the officer noticed a large bulge under respondent's sports jacket.

Plainly the seizure occurred before the gun was noticed.

Now, as to your "question still stands." Your arrogance does not impress me. We are not your research assistants. You got a question, go look up the answer yourself. But, just for other readers, here is some of that answer. It is contained right in that section of summary you lopped off your quote:

The State's proffered justification for such order -- the officer's safety -- is both legitimate and weighty, and the intrusion into respondent's personal liberty occasioned by the order, being, at most, a mere inconvenience, cannot prevail when balanced against legitimate concerns for the officer's safety.

For Sasha: read the rest of the opinion. It talks at length about officer safety. And the lower court's court opinion that SCOTUS was about to overturn:

But the court nonetheless thought the search constitutionally infirm because the officer's order to respondent to get out of the car was an impermissible "seizure." This was so because the officer could not point to "objective observable facts to support a suspicion that criminal activity was afoot or that the occupants of the vehicle posed a threat to police safety." Since this unconstitutional intrusion led directly to observance of the bulge and to the subsequent "pat down," the revolver was the fruit of an unconstitutional search, and, in the view of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, should have been suppressed. We do not agree with this conclusion. (emphasis added by Citizen).

And, just in case you don't read the opinion, here is the nail in your argument's coffin:

We are aware that not all these assaults occur when issuing traffic summons, but we have before expressly declined to accept the argument that traffic violations necessarily involve less danger to officers than other types of confrontations. United States v. Robinson

So, my answer, and the previous posters' answer about PA v Mimms still stands.

You're welcome.

Nice response. This is what I was looking for. I am starting to doubt myself. I now tend to agree with you. I am not trying to use anybody as "research assistants". I am trying to force pointed discussion. I think this is beneficial to all of us. It is not very informative when the answer is "because they got the badge".
 

Citizen

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Nice response. This is what I was looking for. I am starting to doubt myself. I now tend to agree with you. I am not trying to use anybody as "research assistants". I am trying to force pointed discussion. I think this is beneficial to all of us. It is not very informative when the answer is "because they got the badge".

Oh, well. I am glad to hear that. Here is some more pointed discussion:

Hogwash. Everything I wrote after my first post was already pointed out to you when the earlier poster cited PA v Mimms to you. You failed to read the opinion. Then you took part of the syllabus (official summary) out of context by deleting a relevant part. And, then argued with me on the part you kept.

But, I'll keep in mind that you try to force pointed discussion. And, actually think it is beneficial. Compared to, say, just reading the opinion and commenting on it. Or, inviting other's discussion or assistance.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
This scares the crap out of me and I dont even live in this state.

But, but, but. Most of your locations are in the public view. And, even if you are inside your home, your car is in the driveway, or the lights are on. So, people know where you are. So, your privacy really isn't being violated.

/sarcasm
 

warrior1978

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This scares the crap out of me and I dont even live in this state.

What is so scary about it? The State Police have a few devices that can extract cell phone data. The devices are used in conjunction with a search warrant or consent.

How is this any different than searching a home or a computer. If the police want to search a cellphone, or a home or computer, the person consents to the search and/or the police get a search warrant. I fail to understand what the big deal is.

The ACLU is just pissed because the State Police quoted a huge figure to comply with the FOIA request. Now suppose you sent the State Police a FOIA and want to know how many people were traffic stopped for 5 mph over by township in the last 20 years. Compiling that data would be very labor and time extensive. Not all data is computerized or easily searched with a simply query.
 

warrior1978

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I just read Michigan v. Chapo. There was more than just civil infraction. He guy was stopped for running over firefighters water hose - civil infraction. Then, he tried to flee a police officer. Only then he was ordered out of the car because officer already made decision to arrest him. Again, simple traffic stop for civil infraction does not reach level of a crime that is present in both, Pennsylvania v Mimms and Michigan v. Chapo. There is no court cases or Michigan Law from what I can see that would require citizen to exit car when the only reason for traffic stop is civil infraction. Can someone site a Michigan Law that would require to exit car in these circumstances?

Yes the Michigan v. Chapo case was not directly related to what you were asking about. However, the Michigan v. Chapo case quotes Pennsylvania v. Mimms as the standing federal case law that applies to the State of Michigan. This was a recognition by a Michigan Appeals court of federal case law.

Again, the Michigan law that requires you to exit the car is "Resist and Obstruct". It is a lawful order based on standing federal case law.

I will end this discussion by saying that you would not make a good attorney; you have little understanding of statute vs. case law, state law versus federal law, consitutional law or common law. If you follow your own reasoning and choose to ignore a police officer's request to exit a vehicle, you will be arrested for a felony. At that time the best you can hope for is a plea bargain or a long journey to the U.S Supreme Court with little hope of overturning PA v. Mimms.
 

OC for ME

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If you don't want to get out of the car when directed to do so, don't get out of the car. After that, it is on you and your lawyer to work it out.

:banghead:

Just ask the LEO if you can stand behind his car and off the pavement, if it is possible to stand off the pavement. In your car you are less likely to be injured or killed by passing motorists texting while driving when they inadvertently swerve into the LEOs cruiser while they were texting.
 
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smellslikemichigan

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"The implication by the ACLU that the MSP uses these devices "quietly to bypass Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches" is untrue, and this divisive tactic unjustly harms police and community relations."

If they are harmed financially and can prove liable, then I demand they sue to recover damages or my tax money will have to cover these damages.

If they don't have a case for liable, they shouldn't say such things as are in that paragraph...

are you talking about libel? as in defamation?
 

jeremy05

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Oh my god man, if your seriously going to stay in a car after a LEO tells you to get out, you have issues.

The main thing is are you really going to use the argument that " Ugh Officer I read on a Forum online and we all talked about it and I don't have to get out"

Call the Michigan State Police, or your local police. If one department tells you that you can stay in your car, well you can cross that bridge when that happens. I would call a few departments to be sure.
 

Sheldon

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"The implication by the ACLU that the MSP uses these devices "quietly to bypass Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches" is untrue, and this divisive tactic unjustly harms police and community relations."

If they are harmed financially and can prove liable, then I demand they sue to recover damages or my tax money will have to cover these damages.

If they don't have a case for liable, they shouldn't say such things as are in that paragraph...

And the bottom line anything of yours that is accessed with out your expressed consent constitutes an illegal search, copying of such informations is seizure, and in violations of the forth.... So just say NO.....
 
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