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[We-the-People]

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One of the hardest things I find to get someone to do is to pull, point, fireas one NEEDS to do in a self defense situation. They invariably want to spend the time lining up the sights for a bullseye. That's not how the vast majority of self defense situationsgo down.

On the other hand, without practicing the point and shoot technique, you've got a good chance of missing the threat entirely so you HAVE TO PRACTICE IT. Put all the pretty holes in the bullseye at 25 yards you want to but do not think that shows you're going to do well in a self defense encounter.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

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I've been a point shooter most of my adult life. There's no time to go into a Weaver stance, line up the sights... breath 'n all that. 'Want some good self defense scenario practice? Single shot paintall pistols against another similarly armed.

 

[ccwinstructor]

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

I've been a point shooter most of my adult life. There's no time to go into a Weaver stance, line up the sights... breath 'n all that. 'Want some good self defense scenario practice? Single shot paintall pistols against another similarly armed.

Sorry, but your opinion is incorrect. Most self defense situations do not even require firing a shot. The best estimates that I have seen indicate that about 95 percent of the time, the situation is difused through mere showing of the gun. I have had easily 5 or 6 student tell about merely showing a gun to diffuse a situation to each one that had to fire at the assailant.

My personal observations from students are too small a sample to show much, but they are in line with what I read.

When firing is required, it is usually quite close, and a pointing technique can work well. If you have shot with sights a lot, just bring the gun up between your eye and the target results in "subconcious aiming". Your brain aims the gun without you thinking about it. This is much harder to do without being able to see the gun.

In addition, the time that it takes a practiced person to bring the gun into position and fire is about the same as to point shoot, if you put the same amount of practice into both techniques. If there is any distance involved, say beyond three yards or so, It really makes sense to use the sights, and it is just an extra fraction of a second to do so, about 1/5 of a second, I would guess. That fraction makes a huge difference in your ability to hit the target.

 

[ccwinstructor]

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Sorry, Rebel,

I was referring to this statement:

"That's not how the vast majority of self defense situationsgo down."

 

[ccwinstructor]

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

I've been a point shooter most of my adult life. There's no time to go into a Weaver stance, line up the sights... breath 'n all that. 'Want some good self defense scenario practice? Single shot paintall pistols against another similarly armed.

Singleshot paintball, if about the size and shape of a real gun, can be very valuable training. Most people do not realize how easy it is to get shot in a very upclose gun fight.

 

[ccwinstructor]

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We-the-People wrote:

One of the hardest things I find to get someone to do is to pull, point, fireas one NEEDS to do in a self defense situation. They invariably want to spend the time lining up the sights for a bullseye. That's not how the vast majority of self defense situationsgo down.

On the other hand, without practicing the point and shoot technique, you've got a good chance of missing the threat entirely so you HAVE TO PRACTICE IT. Put all the pretty holes in the bullseye at 25 yards you want to but do not think that shows you're going to do well in a self defense encounter.

Now that I have posted out of phase for about three posts, I have to put in the advise of a good friend of mine, George (Tex) Ferguson. Tex was a true American hero, the second most decorated U.S. soldier in WWII. He killed a lot of people, and was extremely lethal in a gun fight. People have told me that he worked army intellegence and then the CIA after WWII, and I believe it. I knew him after he retired in Yuma Arizona. He died a few years ago, and I was priviledged to write one of his obituaries.

I once asked him what the best type of shooting training for combat was. Perhaps he was biased, as he coached the U.S. Army pistol team that went to Moscow to compete with the Soviets, but he unhesitatingly told me "National Match Course" otherwise known as bullseye pistol.

I was very surprised, but he said that you needed to master trigger control, sights, and windage to be effective in combat.

In one story that he reluctantly told me, he killed three men after he was assaulted near an urban center, as a civilian. Two of them he used sights, the third was point shooting at very close range. The entire shooting event took 2-3 seconds.

 

[We-the-People]

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ccwinstructor wrote:

Sorry, Rebel,

I was referring to this statement:

"That's not how the vast majority of self defense situationsgo down."

That's MY statement and it was referring to the "lining up the sights and the bullseye".

While a large number of self defense situations are resolved the moment the gun is presented, when it progresses to the SHOOTING stage, (in the vast majority of THOSE SD cases) lining up the sightslike on the target range is NOT the way you go home with the least damage or better yet unscathed. The way you go homeis being the first one to put rounds on "target". THAT is the "point and shoot" method in the majority of real life SD (had to shoot) cases (up close and VERY personal).

Bad guys don't walk around with their handgun or knife out and walk up from 50 feet or more like in the movies. They pull it at close range and unless you identify the threat (or possible threat) prior to the weapon being presented you are going to be at a distinct disadvantage. It may well behoove you to cooperate and hand over your wallet.....or to appear to be cooperative and hand over your wallet as you draw from concealment if/when the opportunity presents itself.

As an OCer, you're not going to have that problem. Since your weapon is visible, if a BG decided to take you on he is almost certainly going to only do so when he has the advantage and you will be in a situation where you simply do not have the opportunity to take aim with sights. You will be in a position of delivering suppressive fire and, with point and fire shooting training, that suppressive fire will (hopefully) be on target. I know with my rig that, as long as I survive until I've drawn, the BG WILL be in duck and run mode as I can put down 21 rounds in a very VERY short time and deliver 20 more with a simple mag change. And yes, that is my daily carry loadout.

I haven't heard of too many BG's that have stood their groundagainst that kind of onslaught.

For that matter I haven't heard of any BG's sucessfully taking on an OCer. Most probably because any that did did not see the OC'd weapon due to darkness or being in a vehicle. I can't recall hearing of ANY cases where a BG knowingly took on an OC'er.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

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ccwinstructor wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

I've been a point shooter most of my adult life. There's no time to go into a Weaver stance, line up the sights... breath 'n all that. 'Want some good self defense scenario practice? Single shot paintall pistols against another similarly armed.

Singleshot paintball, if about the size and shape of a real gun, can be very valuable training. Most people do not realize how easy it is to get shot in a very upclose gun fight.

Moreover... few realize how easy it is to miss in an up-close gunfight (trying to aim). Pointing is instinctive. We've done it all our lives.

We-The-People is correct: While a large number of self defense situations are resolved the moment the gun is presented, when it progresses to the SHOOTING stage, (in the vast majority of THOSE SD cases) lining up the sightslike on the target range is NOT the way you go home with the least damage or better yet unscathed. The way you go homeis being the first one to put rounds on "target". THAT is the "point and shoot" method in the majority of real life SD (had to shoot) cases (up close and VERY personal).


Rounds on target... Bingo! If you can hit 'em... you slow 'em down or make them do something other than what they were thinking about. Pain does that. Fear does that. If at some point you can pick placeyour shot... then do that, but they're not going to be standing still.

 

[doninvegas]

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Perhaps I should not have interjected my comments, or perhaps they were misleading.
I was only trying to advice against shooting through a purse, nothing more.
I have seen a leaf deflect a bullet and totally miss a target…where that bullet ended up was unknown.
I have seen a grain of cat little foul a barrel and destroy a revolver which was carried in a pocket.
I do believe instinctive shooting is something that all should practice as it will play a large part in self defense, where lethal force is required. I believe once it has been mastered it is safe and acceptable.
I personally have practice and use instinctive shooting for many years. Before my finger goes into the trigger guard it is pointing at my intended target and 99% of the time I hit my mark.
I think what most folks out there don’t realize is that there is really no way to prepare ones self for all the SD scenarios we might encounter in a life time.
Case in point, last year I was sitting at a red light on my bike in Phoenix AZ when a young man walked across the street from my left side, pulled a gun, pointed it at my head and said leave it run and get off the bike. Stealing my bike in its self was not cause for lethal force, but a gun inches from my face, I felt extremely threatened. I was OCing a 1911 on my right side, locked and cocked which he could not see from the left side. The question is, fearing for my life, can I draw and fire and hit my target before he pulls the trigger? And if I missed what was behind him that would stop the bullet if I missed?
I opted to get off the bike on the left side after putting the kickstand down. I dropped the key, the guy took his eyes off of me and I grabbed his gun breaking his finger and smashing him in the face with it…he is doing 3-5 for aggravated assault with a weapon. I did not need to shoot him.
There are thousands of scenarios which could be thought out. But being prepared and always know what is around you will serve as the best protection.

just an opinion.....

be safe

 

[*1911_man*]

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I was out with my gf today shooting, and i remembered this post. So i decided to try it!
We were using human analog targets, about 2 feet wide and maybe 3 feet tall, supposed to be like the upper torso and head of a person. She had her ruger LCR, and we used a purse she had, which she agreed to use as she had just gotten a new one.

So i had her put it in the pocket in her purse her lcr usually sits in, and told her to fire 5 shots at the target from about 10 feet away.
The way she was holding her purse was the strap thing over her shoulder and her hand inside, as if you were carrying it casually.
She fired all 5 rounds at the target, surprisingly, 4 of the 5 rounds hit the target, all about 8 inches from the others. I have no idea where the 5th went. Wasn't on the paper anywhere.

So i guess the conclusion is that if you absolutely have to, it could be done, but not very safely. That 1 shot that missed could go and hit an innocent person.

In my opinion, practice it anyway. Never know when it would come in handy, just make sure its not her primary defensive strategy.

 

[We-the-People]

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Certainly it's not the preferred way to engage a target, it's just another OPTION. Hopefully NONE of our options every have to be employed against anything other than a training taret (of whatever type) but each "tool" we have in our arsenal is just that, another tool that could be employed if necessary.