New Washington State Supreme Court Decision: Unlawful Terry Stop

[Bear 45/70]

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tjschul wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Dave_pro2a wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

bobernet wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Citizenship is something that is valuable (at least to some of us who have seen what it can cost. Mybe everyone should have to serve to earn the right to be a citizen. See Starship Troopers for and examole)and those that don't value it should loose it, you know like felons and others to stupid to appreciate it. The reason the war on drugs doesn't work is because of people with your attitude. We need to get tough about it, instead of half measures that people like you advocate.

Hmmm... In many states, carrying a concealed weapon without a permit is a felony. So, if you're open carrying and the wind blows your shirt over your gun momentarily... you deserve to have your citizenship revoked?

The reason the "war on drugs" doesn't work is the same reason prohibition didn't work.

P.S. I don't advocate half-measures, I advocate *no* measures. Just like I don't avocate a "war on alcohol" a "war on tobacco" a "war on trans fats" or a "war on people who want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet."

Before you spew your snide tone, consider that you don't know anything about the service history (or otherwise) of those you deride on the Internet. I did serve - in wartime. Although, unlike you, I don't consider military service to make me any more qualified to have an opinion than those you accuse of being "to [sic] stupid" to appreciate their citizenship or really, "non-felon status" since no one was discussing citizenship until your post.

If you are stupid enough to wear a shirt that can blow over your open carried weapon, then are are too stupid to be open carrying. Good God, don't make excuse for felons and stupid people. You sure don't act like you value your citizenship. You sound like it is just fine if the Congress gives it to anyone, felons and illegals alike. Not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle is like not wearing a helmet in a race car during a race, very, very stupid. Usually those without helmets are those without any provisions to care for them when they become vegetables, so the public ends up picking up the tab, not my idea of a responsible person. The loss of gun rights is because you lost your citizenship and you brought up the loss of gun rights. You can't vote or have any other of those privileges of citizenship, gun rights included.

And you don't act like you value freedom and natural rights.

Starship troopers is crap.

WoD is nothing but a WoF (war on Freedom). Much like the WoT is just a WoF.

WoD also all about making the state money through asset forfiture. Police are rewarded for lying. It also serves to feed the penal system, one of Americas largest cash cows.

BTW, a human being CANNOT lose gun rights, because they are INALIENABLE. That means you cannot seperate them from your humaness. Any law that is counter to that is illegitimate.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

And I support your right to be stupid. Don't wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle if you don't want to.

I also support your right to be stupid as long as I don't end up paying for it, which in todays world in the US doesn't happen. But I live in a world of reality not fantasy like you. FYI, all wars are caused felony stupid. otherwise greed, the hunt for power or religion, not necessarily in that order. But reality says it isn't going to go away either. Believing in world peace is believing in fantasy.

I believe in whirled peas, global warming and the right to arm bears!!

You guys make sure and wear your bicycle helmets too, wouldn't want to see you bump your noodles:lol:

You live in Gig Harbor and after this last winter and spring, you still believe in global warming. That's real faith.

 

[thewise1]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

bobernet wrote:

Shy_Panda wrote:

Although I don't like the fact that he did have drugs and an illegal firearm, I do like the fact that the court was able to uphold the rights of an individual citizen and further clarify the requirements of a lawful terry stop.

There's nothing about it I don't like, honestly. Felon = gun ban for life is ridiculous, and our "war on drugs" has cost far more money and lives than it's ever saved in my opinion.

I'm not a big fan of malum prohibitum in general. If we spent our enforcement energies and monies on malum in se (the real reason for "ignorance of the law is no excuse"), we'd be a much happier, freer and less incarcerated people.

Citizenship is something that is valuable (at least to some of us who have seen what it can cost. Mybe everyone should have to serve to earn the right to be a citizen. See Starship Troopers for and examole)and those that don't value it should loose it, you know like felons and others to stupid to appreciate it. The reason the war on drugs doesn't work is because of people with your attitude. We need to get tough about it, instead of half measures that people like you advocate.

Just to preface this so that we can get the usual stereotypes out of the way - I'm a 27 year old, never used any drug but alcohol - and I mean ever - and I'm a management consultant, so I'm not some pot smoking hippie or something:

Instead of getting tough on people who make their own choices as to what they do to their bodies, how about we just mind our own business and let them do what they want as long as it hurts no one else?

 

[Bear 45/70]

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thewise1 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

bobernet wrote:

Shy_Panda wrote:

Although I don't like the fact that he did have drugs and an illegal firearm, I do like the fact that the court was able to uphold the rights of an individual citizen and further clarify the requirements of a lawful terry stop.

There's nothing about it I don't like, honestly. Felon = gun ban for life is ridiculous, and our "war on drugs" has cost far more money and lives than it's ever saved in my opinion.

I'm not a big fan of malum prohibitum in general. If we spent our enforcement energies and monies on malum in se (the real reason for "ignorance of the law is no excuse"), we'd be a much happier, freer and less incarcerated people.

Citizenship is something that is valuable (at least to some of us who have seen what it can cost. Mybe everyone should have to serve to earn the right to be a citizen. See Starship Troopers for and examole)and those that don't value it should loose it, you know like felons and others to stupid to appreciate it. The reason the war on drugs doesn't work is because of people with your attitude. We need to get tough about it, instead of half measures that people like you advocate.

Just to preface this so that we can get the usual stereotypes out of the way - I'm a 27 year old, never used any drug but alcohol - and I mean ever - and I'm a management consultant, so I'm not some pot smoking hippie or something:

Instead of getting tough on people who make their own choices as to what they do to their bodies, how about we just mind our own business and let them do what they want as long as it hurts no one else?

That's what you guys keep ignoring. The way the system works right now, you know, in real life, is the rest of us usually end up paying for those that do dangerous, non-survival things and get hurt and end up crippled. I don't like it but as long as they end up take my tax dollars I oppose it.

 

[thewise1]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

thewise1 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

bobernet wrote:

Shy_Panda wrote:

Although I don't like the fact that he did have drugs and an illegal firearm, I do like the fact that the court was able to uphold the rights of an individual citizen and further clarify the requirements of a lawful terry stop.

There's nothing about it I don't like, honestly. Felon = gun ban for life is ridiculous, and our "war on drugs" has cost far more money and lives than it's ever saved in my opinion.

I'm not a big fan of malum prohibitum in general. If we spent our enforcement energies and monies on malum in se (the real reason for "ignorance of the law is no excuse"), we'd be a much happier, freer and less incarcerated people.

Citizenship is something that is valuable (at least to some of us who have seen what it can cost. Mybe everyone should have to serve to earn the right to be a citizen. See Starship Troopers for and examole)and those that don't value it should loose it, you know like felons and others to stupid to appreciate it. The reason the war on drugs doesn't work is because of people with your attitude. We need to get tough about it, instead of half measures that people like you advocate.

Just to preface this so that we can get the usual stereotypes out of the way - I'm a 27 year old, never used any drug but alcohol - and I mean ever - and I'm a management consultant, so I'm not some pot smoking hippie or something:

Instead of getting tough on people who make their own choices as to what they do to their bodies, how about we just mind our own business and let them do what they want as long as it hurts no one else?

That's what you guys keep ignoring. The way the system works right now, you know, in real life, is the rest of us usually end up paying for those that do dangerous, non-survival things and get hurt and end up crippled. I don't like it but as long as they end up take my tax dollars I oppose it.

Many people who smoke pot may not produce a lot, but they aren't necessarily a net drain on society. In fact I really don't know anyone aside from myself who has never smoked pot - referring to people I know well enough to discuss it with, of course - and I mostly hang out in a social circle of fairly successful people, especially considering what I do for a living.

Drugs, guns, fast cars, whatever else, none of these things are to blame for people getting hurt and ending up crippled. People are to blame for people getting hurt and ending up crippled. Should all firearms be banned because a few use them for evil? You're making the same argument for drugs. Should alcohol be banned because we end up paying for the results of drunk driving? You're making the same argument for drugs.

To apply that logic is a gross failure on anyone's part. Excusable if they can admit their error, but if they refuse to do so then I'm afraid they are doomed to hypocrisy.

I really hope my post isn't perceived as confrontational, because it's not intended to be, but I also really hope you'll consider what I said with an open and clear mind.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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thewise1 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

thewise1 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

bobernet wrote:

Shy_Panda wrote:

Although I don't like the fact that he did have drugs and an illegal firearm, I do like the fact that the court was able to uphold the rights of an individual citizen and further clarify the requirements of a lawful terry stop.

There's nothing about it I don't like, honestly. Felon = gun ban for life is ridiculous, and our "war on drugs" has cost far more money and lives than it's ever saved in my opinion.

I'm not a big fan of malum prohibitum in general. If we spent our enforcement energies and monies on malum in se (the real reason for "ignorance of the law is no excuse"), we'd be a much happier, freer and less incarcerated people.

Citizenship is something that is valuable (at least to some of us who have seen what it can cost. Mybe everyone should have to serve to earn the right to be a citizen. See Starship Troopers for and examole)and those that don't value it should loose it, you know like felons and others to stupid to appreciate it. The reason the war on drugs doesn't work is because of people with your attitude. We need to get tough about it, instead of half measures that people like you advocate.

Just to preface this so that we can get the usual stereotypes out of the way - I'm a 27 year old, never used any drug but alcohol - and I mean ever - and I'm a management consultant, so I'm not some pot smoking hippie or something:

Instead of getting tough on people who make their own choices as to what they do to their bodies, how about we just mind our own business and let them do what they want as long as it hurts no one else?

That's what you guys keep ignoring. The way the system works right now, you know, in real life, is the rest of us usually end up paying for those that do dangerous, non-survival things and get hurt and end up crippled. I don't like it but as long as they end up take my tax dollars I oppose it.

Many people who smoke pot may not produce a lot, but they aren't necessarily a net drain on society. In fact I really don't know anyone aside from myself who has never smoked pot - referring to people I know well enough to discuss it with, of course - and I mostly hang out in a social circle of fairly successful people, especially considering what I do for a living.

Drugs, guns, fast cars, whatever else, none of these things are to blame for people getting hurt and ending up crippled. People are to blame for people getting hurt and ending up crippled. Should all firearms be banned because a few use them for evil? You're making the same argument for drugs. Should alcohol be banned because we end up paying for the results of drunk driving? You're making the same argument for drugs.

To apply that logic is a gross failure on anyone's part. Excusable if they can admit their error, but if they refuse to do so then I'm afraid they are doomed to hypocrisy.

I really hope my post isn't perceived as confrontational, because it's not intended to be, but I also really hope you'll consider what I said with an open and clear mind.

Again you guys miss the point. Guns are Consitutionally protected so rule writing is limited and hopefully next month even more so. Howevercars, motorcycles and most other things are not and the powers that be can write any rules they want and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. The Government have been doing this since the 1800s so why aren't you aware and use to it by now. Hell they tell you how you can use your personal home and property all the time with land use rules and building codes. Reality isn't gonna change just because you don't like it. You have to learn to use their own rules against them, not whine about how unfair it is. They don't give a damn if you like it or not either. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it.

 

[thebastidge]

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OK, First of all:

Figure out the ******* quote function!!!



Jayzus!

It's reallyNOTnecessary to quote the ENTIRE previous post including every F'ing thing that was quoted in that post. Particularly egregious is quoting another person'spost with seven-*******-teen quotesAND pictures included in it. This goes for all of you. It's not so bloody difficult, and YES, in this case the profanity was necessary. Stop being tedious wankers!

Secondly, Bear 45/70. My freaking DEITIES, you are an obnoxious freaking blowhard. I say this not as a gratuitous insult, but because I am BEGGING you to do a little introspection and spendFIVE FREAKING SECONDSconsidering your words before you hit "submit" and waste everyone's time.

Thirdly, just because something is not specifically spelled out and enshrined in the Constitution, does not mean it is wrong, perverse, or illegal. The Constitution is an imperfect attempt to define the social compact. It is the best example I have ever seen, but it is still limited by both the imperfectionof the colloquial English language and understanding of human nature achieved by people both contemporaneous to it's inauguration and people currently attempting to understand it's literal interpretation and all the implicit ramifications of it's intent as a check on governmental powers.

 

[expvideo]

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A complete dirt-bag got away with a horrible crime, and now this dangerous criminal is back on the streets. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is a shame that this guy is out there breaking the law again, but it would be much MORE of a shame if his conviction was allowed to stand with an unconstitutional arrest. This is again proof that no amount of safety or security is worth trading essential liberty for.

The police officers should be ashamed. If you can't make an arrest without violating the constitution, you should find another line of work. There are plenty of legal arrests, and if these cops had been more covert and not tried to enforce their little "thought crime" gestapo tactics, this may have been a good arrest. Unfortunately, they took the lazy route. They should be disciplined.

 

[expvideo]

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thebastidge wrote:

...It's reallyNOTnecessary to quote the ENTIRE previous post including every F'ing thing that was quoted in that post. ...

+1

 

[Bear 45/70]

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thebastidge wrote:

OK, First of all:

Figure out the ******* quote function!!!



Jayzus!

It's reallyNOTnecessary to quote the ENTIRE previous post including every F'ing thing that was quoted in that post. Particularly egregious is quoting another person'spost with seven-*******-teen quotesAND pictures included in it. This goes for all of you. It's not so bloody difficult, and YES, in this case the profanity was necessary. Stop being tedious wankers!

Secondly, Bear 45/70. My freaking DEITIES, you are an obnoxious freaking blowhard. I say this not as a gratuitous insult, but because I am BEGGING you to do a little introspection and spendFIVE FREAKING SECONDSconsidering your words before you hit "submit" and waste everyone's time.

Thirdly, just because something is not specifically spelled out and enshrined in the Constitution, does not mean it is wrong, perverse, or illegal. The Constitution is an imperfect attempt to define the social compact. It is the best example I have ever seen, but it is still limited by both the imperfectionof the colloquial English language and understanding of human nature achieved by people both contemporaneous to it's inauguration and people currently attempting to understand it's literal interpretation and all the implicit ramifications of it's intent as a check on governmental powers.

Every post read at least 3 times before sent. But the non-reality crowd is still looking for Valhala and quess what, it don't exist and won't as long as they want their way regardless of what it cost others. And if they are too stupid to deal with the reality of things, not what they wish things were, then not my problem including your whine, nobody said you are required to read the thread.

 

[surfj9009]

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expvideo wrote:

A complete dirt-bag got away with a horrible crime, and now this dangerous criminal is back on the streets.  I wouldn't have it any other way.  It is a shame that this guy is out there breaking the law again, but it would be much MORE of a shame if his conviction was allowed to stand with an unconstitutional arrest.  This is again proof that no amount of safety or security is worth trading essential liberty for.

The police officers should be ashamed.  If you can't make an arrest without violating the constitution, you should find another line of work.  There are plenty of legal arrests, and if these cops had been more covert and not tried to enforce their little "thought crime" gestapo tactics, this may have been a good arrest.  Unfortunately, they took the lazy route.  They should be disciplined.

+1000..I agree with you completely.

 

[surfj9009]

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expvideo wrote:

A complete dirt-bag got away with a horrible crime, and now this dangerous criminal is back on the streets.  I wouldn't have it any other way.  It is a shame that this guy is out there breaking the law again, but it would be much MORE of a shame if his conviction was allowed to stand with an unconstitutional arrest.  This is again proof that no amount of safety or security is worth trading essential liberty for.

The police officers should be ashamed.  If you can't make an arrest without violating the constitution, you should find another line of work.  There are plenty of legal arrests, and if these cops had been more covert and not tried to enforce their little "thought crime" gestapo tactics, this may have been a good arrest.  Unfortunately, they took the lazy route.  They should be disciplined.

+1000..I agree with you completely.

 

[swillden]

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Ya know, the biggest problem with WowBB is that there's no way to create a killfile. I really miss that about good old USENET -- in many ways a superior technology.

 

[surfj9009]

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swillden wrote:

Ya know, the biggest problem with WowBB is that there's no way to create a killfile.  I really miss that about good old USENET -- in many ways a superior technology.

whooooooohooooo! YES!
yet another swerve off topic. I am so glad you guys are enjoying my thread as a general place to rant and rave. let's keep it up!!!!
you know, I think its time I buy my first bolt action rifle. Any suggestions?

 

[sv_libertarian]

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surfj9009 wrote:

whooooooohooooo! YES!
yet another swerve off topic. I am so glad you guys are enjoying my thread as a general place to rant and rave. let's keep it up!!!!
you know, I think its time I buy my first bolt action rifle. Any suggestions?

First off Surf, I've got your money sitting on the galley table. Just haven't been able to make the post office. In fact I don't even own an envelope. You got a pay pal account?

Second, as far as a bolt gun goes, watch the Big 5 ads. Next time a Mosin Nagant 91/30 comes up on sale for $89, buy one. Or two.

Ugly as sin. Funny bolt. Weird safety. Built like a tank, and plenty powerful.

You can get long eye relief scope mounts that replace the rear sight leaf.

Think it over, where else can you get a gun as rugged and well built for about $100 out the door?

If you get lucky you'll find a former sniper rifle.... (look for plugged holes on the left hand side of the action)

 

[just_a_car]

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+1 on the Big 5 Mosin Nagant 91/30. It was my first firearm ever and still one of my favorites.

 

[Shy_Panda]

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centrefiresystems.com usually has some pretty good deals on the Moisn Nagats (sp). At one point they had a deal where if you buy 5 they are each only $39... and good quality, needless to say that one sold out pretty fast, ammo is pretty hard to find for them in the spokane area but man are they fun to shoot, a buddy of mine has one; ears are DEFINETLY ADVISED.

 

[just_a_car]

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Shy_Panda wrote:

centrefiresystems.com usually has some pretty good deals on the Moisn Nagats (sp). At one point they had a deal where if you buy 5 they are each only $39... and good quality, needless to say that one sold out pretty fast, ammo is pretty hard to find for them in the spokane area but man are they fun to shoot, a buddy of mine has one; ears are DEFINETLY ADVISED.

Not advised... an absolute requirement unless you are at least 50 yards away and even then I would suspect it would be rather uncomfortable..

The BOOM! from a mosin will make most folk at a range sit up and say "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?!?"

 

[Shy_Panda]

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just_a_car wrote:

Shy_Panda wrote:

centrefiresystems.com usually has some pretty good deals on the Moisn Nagats (sp). At one point they had a deal where if you buy 5 they are each only $39... and good quality, needless to say that one sold out pretty fast, ammo is pretty hard to find for them in the spokane area but man are they fun to shoot, a buddy of mine has one; ears are DEFINETLY ADVISED.

Not advised... an absolute requirement unless you are at least 50 yards away and even then I would suspect it would be rather uncomfortable..

The BOOM! from a mosin will make most folk at a range sit up and say "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?!?"

By ears I mean hearing protection... you know, ears and eyes on. I may or may not have had my ears on when I first fired it, and I could hear it the next day.

 

[just_a_car]

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Yes, SP, I knew exactly what you meant and that's what I meant by "ears" in my post also.

E.g., why I mentioned it being uncomfortable even at 50 yards and people reacting to the boom.

 

[Shy_Panda]

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just_a_car wrote:

Yes, SP, I knew exactly what you meant and that's what I meant by "ears" in my post also.

E.g., why I mentioned it being uncomfortable even at 50 yards and people reacting to the boom.

Sorry, I missread your statement and took it to be a disagreement on hearing protection.