No OC @ Waterford Schools

[Michigander]

I think it's a sticky situation other than yes it's legal to carry openly under a CPL if you're legally able to be there to begin with. But that raises the question of if you are legally able to be at the school at a given point in time, or if they'll choose to trespass you off the property.

You have a right to vote, you have a right to drop your kids off (whether or not its protected to go in for that, I don't know) you have a right to some other things at schools as well. But beyond that, as a parent or non parent adult, a right to be at a K-12 school gets shakey fast. The administrators can trespass you right off the property pretty much just because they want to.

That's not to say that Waterford schools sound like they have any desire to abide by the law, but it's not a situation I would press real hard, unless under a clearly defined circumstance, again like going to vote.

 

[stainless1911]

Talent shows, parent teacher conferences, bake sales, that sort of thing? I an a parent of a child at the school.

What about taking her to the Kettering High Schools pool?

 

[stainless1911]

if carrying concealed, can only conceal if dropping of / picking up if someplace other than the parking lot, or you can conceal anytime in a parking lot as parking area's are not pfz's

you can't leave the parking lot concealed.

 

[lapeer20m]

you can't leave the parking lot concealed.

you can legally conceal if you are in a vehicle picking up/dropping off your child anywhere on school property, even if you are not in a "parking area"

a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school.

"premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

28.425oa

anybody with cpl can legally cc in parking areas, but if you are going to drive in other areas, you are required to be picking up/dropping off your child.

 

[MarineSgt]

Talent shows, parent teacher conferences, bake sales, that sort of thing? I an a parent of a child at the school.

What about taking her to the Kettering High Schools pool?

What about a ticketed event like a High School Football game where one purchases a ticket? Could they ask you to leave if you are not breaking any laws?

 

[sasha601]

I think it's a sticky situation other than yes it's legal to carry openly under a CPL if you're legally able to be there to begin with. But that raises the question of if you are legally able to be at the school at a given point in time, or if they'll choose to trespass you off the property.

You have a right to vote, you have a right to drop your kids off (whether or not its protected to go in for that, I don't know) you have a right to some other things at schools as well. But beyond that, as a parent or non parent adult, a right to be at a K-12 school gets shakey fast. The administrators can trespass you right off the property pretty much just because they want to.

That's not to say that Waterford schools sound like they have any desire to abide by the law, but it's not a situation I would press real hard, unless under a clearly defined circumstance, again like going to vote.

I do not think school can easily trespass you if you follow the rules. It is always legal to go to Main Office at any time. It is almost always illegal to go anywhere else around school before getting permission from Main Office. Discretely carrying a small video recorder running will quickly reveal to a school official that any attempt to bring trespass charges is a BS and will not hold up in Court (unless you are truly trespassing)

 

[Michigander]

The other consideration to be made is whether or not you want to be demonized in the media, which is something that can have a fast, far reaching effect for all of us.

It is much easier, in terms of the news, to defend going to vote armed, then trying to defend wandering the halls armed with a video recorder and a sidearm, just to prove you can. Dropping your kid(s) off at school I suppose might fall somewhere between that.

Anything that can turn into a publicity stunt and police interaction should be done very carefully. Particularly if you aren't extremely knowledgeable and very well spoken.

 

[Big Gay Al]

If you don't mind were did you find that at? I tried searching on the michigan state police website and have yet to find it.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

The above is a link to the specific AG's opinion on open carry on school grounds. It also cites the specific laws in question.

 

[NHCGRPR45]

if you are a CPL holder and you are armed, you cannot even get out of your car! to be armed on school property anywhere! you must Open carry!

 

[Big Gay Al]

What about a ticketed event like a High School Football game where one purchases a ticket? Could they ask you to leave if you are not breaking any laws?

That is a good question. So far as I know, it's still public property. For anyone interested, I guess the key question becomes, do you feel like maybe becoming a test case?

 

[Big Gay Al]

if you are a CPL holder and you are armed, you cannot even get out of your car! to be armed on school property anywhere! you must Open carry!

Except parking areas are exempt.

 

[DrTodd]

if you are a CPL holder and you are armed, you cannot even get out of your car! to be armed on school property anywhere! you must Open carry!

Not true... please cite.

 

[DrTodd]

That is a good question. So far as I know, it's still public property. For anyone interested, I guess the key question becomes, do you feel like maybe becoming a test case?

Yes they can. However, usually they do 1 of 2 things, try to charge under state law or a local ordinance. Usually, if the charge is under state law they try to prosecute under MCL 750.170 Disturbance of lawful meetings. Schools are NOT explicitly listed but courts have ALWAYS upheld the citation in relation to a school.

The other option is to charge under a local ordinance. Waterford has this:

Sec. 11-32. Obstructing officer or governmental function.
It shall be a violation of this code for any person to obstruct, impair or hinder the legal performance of a governmental function, including but not limited to a police or public safety officer in the reasonable discharge of his or her duties, by any act, word, threat, physical interference or obstacle which either:
(1) Is designed to interfere or hinder the officer or governmental function, or;
(2) Is likely to result in the interference or hindering of any officer or governmental function, and the violator reasonably was aware, or should have been aware, that the said action would likely result in the interference or hindrance.

Since "education" is deemed a "government function", this may be a problem. I don't think, though, that they would try this one BUT it has been done.
AND, they have this:

ARTICLE VIII. OFFENSES ON SCHOOL GROUNDS

Sec. 11-351. Definitions.
For purposes of this article the term "school" means any preelementary, elementary (grades K--6), secondary (grades 7--12) school, any college or combination thereof; and the term "principal" means any principal of any elementary or secondary school or the chief administrative officer of any elementary or secondary school or college.
Cross references: Definitions and rules of construction generally, § 1-2.

Sec. 11-352. Admission restricted.
No person who is not a regularly enrolled student or parent or guardian thereof or a school official, teacher or other public or school employee shall enter or trespass upon or loiter in or upon any public, private or parochial school building or school property in the city for any reason whatever unless such person has received written permission from the principal or other person designated by the principal to be in or upon or to remain in or upon such public, private or parochial school building or school property; provided, however, that such written permission need not be secured by persons engaging in or attending a school or recreation board authorized activity or by persons using school playground or playground equipment after school hours or when school is not in session unless such entry or use shall have been otherwise prohibited by a rule or regulation of the school board, school principal or other person, board or committee with the authority to prohibit such use or entry.
State law references: Trespassing, MCL 750.546 et seq., MSA 28.814 et seq.

(Since Stainless1911 is a parent, he would be exempt from this.

Sec. 11-353. Disturbing schools.
No person shall willfully or maliciously make or assist in making any noise, disturbance or improper diversion by which the peace, quietude, or good order of any public, private or parochial school is disturbed.
State law references: Disturbing public places, MCL 750.170, MSA 28.367.
This would require that Stainless1911 ALWAYS have a recorder running. If it turns into a "he said/she said" sort of thing, the school official will most likely be believed until proven otherwise. Just make sure that you do not willfully or maliciously act, and you should be ok (imho)They would argue the "good order" being disturbed.

Sec. 11-354. Duty of person creating disturbance to leave premises.
Any person, whether lawfully or unlawfully in or upon any public, private or parochial school building or school property who is found to be creating a disturbance in or upon any such school building or property shall leave immediately when so directed by the principal or by any other person designated by the principal.
State law references: Disturbing public places, MCL 750.170.


Notice that the requirement of willfully/maliciously is absent AND that the school does the "finding"


<snip>

Sec. 11-358. Violations and sanctions.
Violation of section 11-353 is a civil infraction, with sanctions as set forth in sections 11-408 and 11-409 of this Code. All other violations of this article are punishable in accordance with subsection 1-10(a) of this Code, unless specified otherwise.
(Ord. of 7-8-02)
Secs. 11-359--11-380. Reserved.
(Comp. Ords. 1986, § 20.574; Ord. of 3-8-99)

 

[DrTodd]

well, my question is, are you going back to Waterford schools and open carrying? or are you leaving your gun in the car?

cause the way you talk about flexing your rights, I expect you to be at that school in the morning with your lawfully carried gun?

kyleplusiunes:

Stainless1911 has been in conversation with a few people here and on MOC for quite some time about this issue. Stainless presented his information openly and appears to be following a cautious yet assertive series of steps to get the issue rectified and he has come here to express his thoughts/beliefs to OCDO members. Would you prefer that he do this by himself and not get any feedback from others? Whatever may or may not have happened in the past is just that... the past.
I would like to believe that your comments come only from the best of intentions. That being the case don't take this as a criticism of what you expressed BUT if your point was to rehash history and get some personal satisfaction at taking him to task... he has expressed his regrets and has moved on. Until proven otherwise, we should too and instead help him and others expand the right for all of us to protect ourselves and our loved ones everywhere we may legally do so.

 

[DrTodd]

if you are a CPL holder and you are armed, you cannot even get out of your car! to be armed on school property anywhere! you must Open carry!

Beside the Parking lot exemption and the various CC exemptions for "certain" people...some of which aren't even based on actual employment status as a LEO, the law states that one may not Carry a Concealed pistol... not that OC is the only way to be armed. Not CC does NOT equal OC ONLY.

 

[NHCGRPR45]

my understanding is that while dropping off or picking up a student so long as you do not exit your vehicle you can have your concealed gun. i could be wrong, if so explain it to me please. i read it that way. i would not want to be giving out the wrong info so help me out drtodd thank you

 

[DrTodd]

my understanding is that while dropping off or picking up a student so long as you do not exit your vehicle you can have your concealed gun. i could be wrong, if so explain it to me please. i read it that way. i would not want to be giving out the wrong info so help me out drtodd thank you

I wasn't trying to attack... just that we sometimes get caught up with how we have operationalized all this in our minds and we take "mental shortcuts” which may, or may not, be the actual law. Not your fault... just that the law is written poorly. What is important is what is underlined:

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
Here's what you saw as the restrictions for schools. Since you see that the legislature lists an exemption for p/u & dropping off children from school... that APPEARS to be the only exception for people, not given any other exemption, carrying concelaed BUT go down to the next red section...

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

(2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).Ah... here is the general parking lot exception. My understanding for the reason this is here is that the exception for parents above was working through the legislature at the same time as this parking lot exception... so both were passed within about the same time period. It really doesn't matter why, but it is definitely there

Because I don't want to unduly influence other's behavior, I will repeat that "Not CC" does NOT necessarily mean OC. PM me if you want clarification. Hope it helps.

 

[Big Gay Al]

my understanding is that while dropping off or picking up a student so long as you do not exit your vehicle you can have your concealed gun. i could be wrong, if so explain it to me please. i read it that way. i would not want to be giving out the wrong info so help me out drtodd thank you

Under 28.425o Sec. 5o. (3) it says the following:
As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

One of the many places identified under subsection (1) are "Schools."

Essentially, I can park my car in the parking lot, while waiting for my boys, and stand there, outside my vehicle with my pistol open, or concealed.

For those who want to look it up, it's on page 28 of the Michigan Firearms laws pamphlet that they give you when you apply for your CPL, if you're looking at the PDF version, it's actually page 34 of that document file.

 

[Kovernm]

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

The above is a link to the specific AG's opinion on open carry on school grounds. It also cites the specific laws in question.

Thanks, I can't believe that came from Granholm. So with that can you then oc in a hospital, court, sports arena, or a bar?

 

[stainless1911]

NOT in a court. You can't CC there either.