OC Encounter - West Haven Police

[Rich B]

A distinction without a difference.

The current permit allows for concealed carry, so calling it such is not incorrect.

That's twenty minutes I can't get back.

It makes all the difference when people for the last 30 years have called it that and police enforced it as that.

It is on par with not understanding the difference between a 'clip' and a 'magazine'. And it becomes especially important when someone is professing to know all about Connecticut and open carry in Connecticut.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

I have to say that I too, see it as a distinction With a difference. While one may carry concealed with a weapons carry permit, one usually cannot carry openly with a concealed carry permit.
Instead of fighting over technicalities, why not graciously accept what the license actually is?

 

[heckle]

<soapbox>
While I do not have my permit yet (waiting in the queue), I understand that the CT Pistol permit allows for both Open and Concealed. It is not one or the other, it is both. This is why it is a "Connecticut State Pistol Permit". I seem to have read about some states that require a special permit to carry concealed, CT is not one of them. Even if someone has "never" seen anyone else open carry does not mean it is not being done. Some people choose to carry openly and some choose to carry concealed. I have never seen anyone carry openly in CT (except the LEO's and at the gun safety class) nor have I seen anyone carry concealed. So by not seeing anyone carry concealed, that means it is not done?

You may think it is a minor issue whether or not CT has a Concealed Carry permit. For those of you who have had permits for many years, be civil about it. There are many (like my wife and I) who are just beginning the process and are looking for information, constructive conversations and community. So for the sake of the new people who are seeking information, please don't argue over small things like this. An intelligent person can see that the permit allows for both OC and CC, they even cover it in the gun safety classes. Arguing about things like this only muddy the waters for people looking for information.

Thank you.

</soapbox>

 

[davidmcbeth]

I have to say that I too, see it as a distinction With a difference. While one may carry concealed with a weapons carry permit, one usually cannot carry openly with a concealed carry permit.
Instead of fighting over technicalities, why not graciously accept what the license actually is?

What is it? An intrusion into your RKBA IMO

 

[Riverdance]

Good job on filing paper. Cryin' shame you didn't have a recorder running. Right now, it's a "he said, she said" situation. But I bet when Officer Histrionic tells his side he'll prove your case for you.

Good luck!

In my complaint I included the responses from people in the restaurant, so the fact that they know there were some witnesses should hopefully keep the officers' statements from veering too far from the truth, if any are inclined otherwise.

 

[MKEgal]

Filed complaint with West Haven Chief of Police John Karajanis, Jr., and cc'd Mayor John M. Picard, Corporation Counsel Peter Barrett, Esq, all ten members of City Council and three Councilmen at Large as well as Accreditation Program Manager and Legal Counsel from Connecticut State Police Dept of Emergency Services and Public Protection, Police Officer Standards and Training Council (POST).

I don't say this often, but: Dude! :dude:

While one may carry concealed with a weapons carry permit, one usually cannot carry openly with a concealed carry permit.

That's like saying I'm not allowed to ride a bicycle because I have a driver's license.
Some states require a permit to carry, no matter how you carry.
Some states only a require a permit to conceal.

 

[langzaiguy]

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that if you have a permit that says conceal carry on it, it has nothing to do with open carry, though you may open carry if your state allows it.

For instance, in ky,I have my concealed weapons license yet I open carry. The permit has nothing to do with me open carrying a firearm.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rich B]

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that if you have a permit that says conceal carry on it, it has nothing to do with open carry, though you may open carry if your state allows it.

For instance, in ky,I have my concealed weapons license yet I open carry. The permit has nothing to do with me open carrying a firearm.

I agree that is what he is saying. And it is incredibly ignorant.

Connecticut does not have Kentucky's laws. Here, you have a pistol permit that enables you to legally carry. Period. No difference in concealed or unconcealed or 50% concealed or anything else.

 

[BB62]

Filed complaint with West Haven Chief of Police John Karajanis, Jr., and cc'd Mayor John M. Picard, Corporation Counsel Peter Barrett, Esq, all ten members of City Council and three Councilmen at Large as well as Accreditation Program Manager and Legal Counsel from Connecticut State Police Dept of Emergency Services and Public Protection, Police Officer Standards and Training Council (POST).

Will see what kind of response I get.

Excellent!

And thanks for your detailed write-up. I'll be watching this thread.

 

[Black_water]

No such thing.



There are quite a few people OCing around Connecticut on a pretty constant basis.

This is very simple:

1. For anyone to say that someone with 30 years experience doing something is somehow not qualified to participate in conversation about said thing is at best silly. I wonder if anyone would argue that a retired LEO would not be a good source of information on what cops do or if a grandparent, would not be a good source of info on parenting.

This idea that I am somehow not qualified to comment on what CT was like after having lived there for 30 years is myopic and silly at best.

2. The above quote is where you lost the debate. A more appropriate response would have been something like "CT does have a concealed carry permit per se, but a general carry type permit that allows concealed carry". But rather than be civil, you made several posts more akin to a recalcitrant teenager who wanted to argue about how wrong a parent was for saying they were a "half hour late for curfew" when in fact it was only 27 minutes.

Sorry that your cognitive abilities did not allow you to see deep enough to understand the spirit of what was said over the letter of what was said.

It is still a "distinction without a difference" as the permit CT offers allows for concealed carry, so calling it such really makes no difference whatever.

Now I will leave the CT forum the way I left state...wishing I never went there to begin with.

 

[Rich B]

A more appropriate response would have been something like "CT does have a concealed carry permit per se, but a general carry type permit that allows concealed carry".

I am sorry, but I didn't think I needed to explain this to an expert on all things Connecticut with 30 years of experience. What I said was accurate, whether you like it or not.

It is still a "distinction without a difference" as the permit CT offers allows for concealed carry, so calling it such really makes no difference whatever.

As already stated, it makes quite a bit of difference. The difference of everyone being too afraid to exercise a lawful right and people understanding the law and exercising their rights appropriately.

Now I will leave the CT forum the way I left state...wishing I never went there to begin with.

The feeling is mutual. And I make you this promise: You won't find me coming to the AZ forum pretending to be an authority on AZ law and insulting the people of AZ.

 

[cteaglesfan]

This is very simple:

1. For anyone to say that someone with 30 years experience doing something is somehow not qualified to participate in conversation about said thing is at best silly. I wonder if anyone would argue that a retired LEO would not be a good source of information on what cops do or if a grandparent, would not be a good source of info on parenting.

This idea that I am somehow not qualified to comment on what CT was like after having lived there for 30 years is myopic and silly at best.

2. The above quote is where you lost the debate. A more appropriate response would have been something like "CT does have a concealed carry permit per se, but a general carry type permit that allows concealed carry". But rather than be civil, you made several posts more akin to a recalcitrant teenager who wanted to argue about how wrong a parent was for saying they were a "half hour late for curfew" when in fact it was only 27 minutes.

Sorry that your cognitive abilities did not allow you to see deep enough to understand the spirit of what was said over the letter of what was said.

It is still a "distinction without a difference" as the permit CT offers allows for concealed carry, so calling it such really makes no difference whatever.

Now I will leave the CT forum the way I left state...wishing I never went there to begin with.

Black_water,

In between the insults back and forth, I believe you missed what Rich was saying. He was simply saying that the term 'CCW' which is commonly used doesn't apply in CT since our permit is to carry with no specification on how you carry.

Rich is actually a VERY good dude with a lot of knowledge on CT guns laws. I believe it was just a miscommunication issue, which tends to happen alot here.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

While one may carry concealed with a weapons carry permit, one usually cannot carry openly with a concealed carry permit.

My words may have been misinterpreted by some, so if I may I will revise and extend.

As Connecticut has a State Permit to Carry Pistols and Revolvers, so Georgia has a Georgia Weapons Carry License.

With said license one may carry openly or concealed as suits their purpose.
In contrast, a concealed carry license, such as Florida's---

-- limits one to carrying only in a concealed fashion lest one run afoul of the law and be subject to prosecution.

 

[BB62]

They issued a license to Chuck Woolery???

 

[Rush Mayhem IV]

This state's law enforcement does not know the laws.

Guy is a :banghead:

Just because you don't feel "the need" to carry OFF DUTY in that **** hole area of town doesn't mean that we legally can't.

As far as the bickering about what the permit actually is and has been its a permit to carry pistols and revolvers as Rich stated. That is IT. Your choice to carry it anyway you want. Its officers like the above mentioned that discourage people to not openly carry, or even carry at all for that matter.

This is also interesting.

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/05/connecticut-state-police-finally-admit-open-carry-is-lawful/#axzz2W9JOkATh

I can't grasp how law enforcement is "finally admitting" that something, that was always legal, is now all of a sudden lawful?

 

[Riverdance]

I actually had that CT State Police training bulletin out in my car.

Wish I had been there longer or lived closer to walk the streets and shops every day until they get used to it.

 

[CT Barfly]

Does anybody care to comment on whether the mere act of OC can be cited by the BFPE as grounds for a finding that the permittee is unsuitable and revoke the license? (Say in the event word of your encounter gets back to your issuing authority.) If your local IA sends you a revocation letter citing suitability because you're OC'ing, you're immediately revoked until your appeal is decided, which could take months, Right? How many of you trust your IA to back up your OC rights when the BFPE has advised against it and someone complains to the IA?

To my eyes, this is the biggest risk one faces while OC'ing. A BOP charge may be dropped (it is wholly inappropriate for mere OC, and a product of sloppy police training/education) but the suitability issue may live on, and because it has not been sufficiently defined, it would seem you are still open to a challenge. My understanding is that the BFPE does not like OC and takes a dim view of Oc'ers who end up in front of them since they clearly counsel that "every effort" should be made to conceal. Please correct me if I am wrong.

At most I suggest modified OC:
1. IWB
2. Cover up when entering businesses where you will be staying/shopping for any appreciable time..and do so casually/obviously so that any possible observer will see you respecting layperson sensibilities. Cover up anywhere you see children PERIOD...you will never be able to explain OC in the presence of children to anybody, ever...forget it.
3. OC is fine for fleeting encounters...gas stations, parking lots, popping in to coffee shops. If there is time for discussions about your visible weapon with bystanders and police response/interview, you run the risk stated above. REMEMBER it is up to the observer whether they wish to give you a hard time...why give them so much power? At the very least, duration of visibility is the most offensive aspect. People are normally oblivious to their surroundings, if they notice your OC firearm "late" they will be angered because they feel you are being deceptive or sneaky...not a good place to start the interaction and people may confront you out of fear/anger. ALWAYS disengage/deescalate...offer to cover...leave. They will not be of a mind to discuss that "yes it is legal in CT"...your motives "why" are not worthy of discussion, either...you don't need a reason to OC...just be polite.
4. Don't dress like a gangbanger/slob when OC...safe/sane/calm appearing OCers don't get hassled. Business attire (shirt tie slacks) makes you invisible, even when OC...try it out if ya don't believe me.

 

[cteaglesfan]

Does anybody care to comment on whether the mere act of OC can be cited by the BFPE as grounds for a finding that the permittee is unsuitable and revoke the license? (Say in the event word of your encounter gets back to your issuing authority.) If your local IA sends you a revocation letter citing suitability because you're OC'ing, you're immediately revoked until your appeal is decided, which could take months, Right? How many of you trust your IA to back up your OC rights when the BFPE has advised against it and someone complains to the IA?

To my eyes, this is the biggest risk one faces while OC'ing. A BOP charge may be dropped (it is wholly inappropriate for mere OC, and a product of sloppy police training/education) but the suitability issue may live on, and because it has not been sufficiently defined, it would seem you are still open to a challenge. My understanding is that the BFPE does not like OC and takes a dim view of Oc'ers who end up in front of them since they clearly counsel that "every effort" should be made to conceal. Please correct me if I am wrong.

At most I suggest modified OC:
1. IWB
2. Cover up when entering businesses where you will be staying/shopping for any appreciable time..and do so casually/obviously so that any possible observer will see you respecting layperson sensibilities. Cover up anywhere you see children PERIOD...you will never be able to explain OC in the presence of children to anybody, ever...forget it.
3. OC is fine for fleeting encounters...gas stations, parking lots, popping in to coffee shops. If there is time for discussions about your visible weapon with bystanders and police response/interview, you run the risk stated above. REMEMBER it is up to the observer whether they wish to give you a hard time...why give them so much power? At the very least, duration of visibility is the most offensive aspect. People are normally oblivious to their surroundings, if they notice your OC firearm "late" they will be angered because they feel you are being deceptive or sneaky...not a good place to start the interaction and people may confront you out of fear/anger. ALWAYS disengage/deescalate...offer to cover...leave. They will not be of a mind to discuss that "yes it is legal in CT"...your motives "why" are not worthy of discussion, either...you don't need a reason to OC...just be polite.
4. Don't dress like a gangbanger/slob when OC...safe/sane/calm appearing OCers don't get hassled. Business attire (shirt tie slacks) makes you invisible, even when OC...try it out if ya don't believe me.

CT Barfly,

I understand where you're going with this, I get the whole thing about avoiding dissension BUT you're probably going to catch a lot of heat. I think most people here who OC believe that they don't have to justify it or play the 'cover up' game when they're well within the limits of the law. And I loosly disagree with your 4th point about dress. I'm black and my pants sag a little BUT not to rediculous laughable degree that we've seen lately. And I'd like to believe that my ability to OC isn't based on my color or clothes, but my demeanor and behavior while OCing

 

[Rich B]

Does anybody care to comment on whether the mere act of OC can be cited by the BFPE as grounds for a finding that the permittee is unsuitable and revoke the license?

Start a new thread. No one should be answering you here, this is a completely new and different topic.

 

[MSG Laigaie]

Does anybody care to comment on whether the mere act of OC can be cited............
(1) To my eyes, this is the biggest risk one faces while OC'ing.
(2) My understanding is that the BFPE does not like OC and takes a dim view of Oc'ers who end up in front of them since they clearly counsel that "every effort" should be made to conceal.
At most I suggest modified OC:
(3) 1. IWB
(4) 2. Cover up when entering businesses where you will be staying/shopping for any appreciable time..and do so casually/obviously so that any possible observer will see you respecting layperson sensibilities.
(5) Cover up anywhere you see children PERIOD...you will never be able to explain OC in the presence of children to anybody, ever...forget it.
(6) 3. OC is fine for fleeting encounters...gas stations, parking lots, popping in to coffee shops. If there is time for discussions about your visible weapon with bystanders and police response/interview, you run the risk stated above.
(7) REMEMBER it is up to the observer whether they wish to give you a hard time...why give them so much power? At the very least, duration of visibility is the most offensive aspect. People are normally oblivious to their surroundings, if they notice your OC firearm "late" they will be angered because they feel you are being deceptive or sneaky...not a good place to start the interaction and people may confront you out of fear/anger. ALWAYS disengage/deescalate...offer to cover...leave. They will not be of a mind to discuss that "yes it is legal in CT"...your motives "why" are not worthy of discussion, either...you don't need a reason to OC...
(8) just be polite.
4. Don't dress like a gangbanger/slob when OC...
(9) safe/sane/calm appearing OCers don't get hassled. Business attire (shirt tie slacks) makes you invisible, even when OC...try it out if ya don't believe me.

You seem to have a few issues with Open Carry.
1. You can "get cited" for anything you do, legal or not.

2. So, it is your choice to knuckle under or stand up for your Rights.

3. Uncomfortable choice compared to OCing, but that is a matter of comfort only.

4. Cover up?? Really?? We tend to lean to the Open Carry of weapons here.

5. Again, Cover up?? Really?? Your idea to "protect the children" is ludicrous. Do not sensitize people to fear your weapon, it is counter-productive to the normalization of Open Carry.

6. You are living in fear. OC can truly become a way of life.

7. Yes most people do not notice the weapon. If they do, it is their fear that must be overcome. Yes deescalate, but do not run away with your tail between your legs.

8. Always. A smile goes a long long way in an encounter.

9. Safe and Sane, that IS the ticket. People interact with you, not your weapon. Be polite, smile a lot, and carry.

If your fears are this great, conceal and be done with it. If you want to make Open Carry a normal way of life in your area, do it by Open Carrying every day. Encourage others to do so and work with your LEOs and Reps to keep it that way. It is very important to remember that A Right not Exercised is a Right Lost.