OCing past the picket line of a store on strike

[amlevin]

Why bust your ass at UPS for that much when you could drive a bus? Try shipping that job to China.

They'll just bring in a Chinese Bus Driver.

 

[amlevin]

Arent Toyota's made in California?

Don't know about California but they have a huge factory in Georgetown, KY.

Honda and Nissan also build lots, if not most, of their cars for this market here.

I drive a Nissan pickup that was totally designed, and built in this country. It has more US built parts in it than a Ford P/U.

 

[New Daddy]

So what you are saying is that it is a "Market Driven" economy?

I don't believe so, rather it's a "cheap" driven economy. In a "market driven" economy, the consumer picks the best value, not the lowest price. Those "expensive" toasters were repairable and lasted pretty much forever, now they're disposable. When was the last time you saw an appliance repair shop?

For example, my grandmother bought an Electrolux vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure when, but I've got pictures of me using it as the "Batmobile" in 1968. My father still uses that vacuum cleaner. It's got to be 50 years old. When my wife and I set up house, we went through Hoovers et al every couple of years at $100-200 each. Finally, I broke down and bought an Electrolux in 1992. It cost $600. I haven't bought a vacuum cleaner since. If I would have stuck with Hoovers et al, based on the existing trend I would have spent over $1800 by now - and that doesn't count how much easier the Electrolux is to use because it's a better vacuum (time savings, etc). Which vacuum was a better value? Electrolux is a Swedish company, but you can make the same argument about Toyota or Honda or any other of a myriad of products - for example my father is still using my grandmothers KitchenAid mixer - it has to be 60-70 years old. Electrolux treats it's employees fairly (Sweden is notoriously tough on that) - contrast that with any Chinese made product.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

The problem is the capitalism doesn't work either. We had capitalism prior to the unions (we don't have capitalism now). Under capitalism, the "owners" pay workers a fair wage for fair work. What we had was owners trying to starve out workers while working them to death. That's why we have unions now.

Businesses are capitalist when it suits their purpose and socialist the rest of the time. That's why they are always asking for subsidies, bailouts, and tax breaks.

Unions, unfortunately are running the other way. However, given the salaries of top executives at most companies, I wish them the best of luck in taking as much as they can out of the company before it off shores their jobs to China so some executive can make $150 million instead of $100 million. You can use the threat of them taking the jobs overseas, but when the alternative is indentured servitude (slavery), I'll wave bye-bye every time.

The real cause of off shoring was the first American worker who decided saving $2 on a toaster was more important than paying a living wage or having environmental controls. I hope it was worth it.

Free markets and capitalism does work, we have had way to much government involvement that has messed it up.

 

[amlevin]

I don't believe so, rather it's a "cheap" driven economy. In a "market driven" economy, the consumer picks the best value, not the lowest price. Those "expensive" toasters were repairable and lasted pretty much forever, now they're disposable. When was the last time you saw an appliance repair shop?

I think you misunderstand the term "market driven". It merely means that the "Market" will drive the economy by making whatever choice they choose. Some will choose quality over price, some will choose price over quality, and some will choose based on country of origin. There is also a term called "perception". When one perceives the quality differences to be insignificant they will choose price. When one wants a gallon of gas to make their car go a certain distance they perceive no difference between the $2.90/gallon and the $3.50/gallon so they opt for the cheaper. Unless the marketer can make a compelling argument for the more expensive, they choose the cheaper.

We have people on this forum that carry inexpensive guns and some that carry "top of the line". A choice made by the purchaser. If the market is for inexpensive guns, a Dealer that only carries "top of line" will not sell as many.

Same for labor. If a worker's task is to pick up a stamped part, insert another stamped part, and add a nut and bolt here and there, the factory is charged with getting as many of these "assemblys" finished in a given time as possible and at the lowest cost. If someone will do that, in another country, while making what could be 3-4 times the average daily wage in THAT country, then why wouldn't the manufacturer take the work there.

Using that toaster argument you presented, many people would rather buy a cheap toaster, use it until it quits (I have one that's 25 years old and only cost $8) and buy another, rather than buy an expensive one that may or may not last the same time. How many $8 toasters can one buy for the same price as that "American Made" that may cost $50 or more?

We aren't alone in this world of manufacturing anymore. Others are making products that make some of our "Made in USA" products look cheap. Ever look at construction equipment? How many foreign names do you see?

Back in 1990, about the time of Gulf War I, the company I was working for decided to capitalize on the "new patriotism" of the time. They decided that ALL of the products they sold would be "Made In America". All foreign produced product was phased out and all the new product filled the warehouses. Big Ad Campaigns, etc. Then disaster struck. Seems like the "flagship product" suddenly had some failure issues. The premier product was failing right and left. Customers were PO'd and demanding their money back. Guess what? That company no longer sells exclusive "American Made" product. When they switched back to the foreign made product the "adjustment rate" for the products went from near 20% (that's a one in five failure rate) to less than 1%.

You can't say that just because something is "Foreign Made" it's inferior to US made.

 

[New Daddy]

I think you misunderstand the term "market driven". It merely means that the "Market" will drive the economy by making whatever choice they choose. Some will choose quality over price, some will choose price over quality, and some will choose based on country of origin. There is also a term called "perception". When one perceives the quality differences to be insignificant they will choose price. When one wants a gallon of gas to make their car go a certain distance they perceive no difference between the $2.90/gallon and the $3.50/gallon so they opt for the cheaper. Unless the marketer can make a compelling argument for the more expensive, they choose the cheaper.

We have people on this forum that carry inexpensive guns and some that carry "top of the line". A choice made by the purchaser. If the market is for inexpensive guns, a Dealer that only carries "top of line" will not sell as many.

Same for labor. If a worker's task is to pick up a stamped part, insert another stamped part, and add a nut and bolt here and there, the factory is charged with getting as many of these "assemblys" finished in a given time as possible and at the lowest cost. If someone will do that, in another country, while making what could be 3-4 times the average daily wage in THAT country, then why wouldn't the manufacturer take the work there.

Using that toaster argument you presented, many people would rather buy a cheap toaster, use it until it quits (I have one that's 25 years old and only cost $8) and buy another, rather than buy an expensive one that may or may not last the same time. How many $8 toasters can one buy for the same price as that "American Made" that may cost $50 or more?

We aren't alone in this world of manufacturing anymore. Others are making products that make some of our "Made in USA" products look cheap. Ever look at construction equipment? How many foreign names do you see?

Back in 1990, about the time of Gulf War I, the company I was working for decided to capitalize on the "new patriotism" of the time. They decided that ALL of the products they sold would be "Made In America". All foreign produced product was phased out and all the new product filled the warehouses. Big Ad Campaigns, etc. Then disaster struck. Seems like the "flagship product" suddenly had some failure issues. The premier product was failing right and left. Customers were PO'd and demanding their money back. Guess what? That company no longer sells exclusive "American Made" product. When they switched back to the foreign made product the "adjustment rate" for the products went from near 20% (that's a one in five failure rate) to less than 1%.

You can't say that just because something is "Foreign Made" it's inferior to US made.

I don't think I've made an argument for American made products. If you read the rest of what I wrote, I mentioned three products, vacuum cleaners, cars and mixers. Only one was an "American" company. As for heavy equipment, I was on the shop floor in 1985 when the first Komatsu tractor came in. Our "valiant" union members shrugged their shoulders, climbed on it and went to work (so much for solidarity) - and this was in Illinois - home to both Caterpillar and John Deere.

That aside, the "market driven" economy isn't market driven. Consumers aren't informed decision makers. In your example of gas, if one chooses the cheaper gas - given that the difference isn't marketing - at some point they'll be sitting at the side of the ride wondering why their car won't run when it's got clogged filters and injectors. Most Americans avoid the issue by trading their cars every couple of years adding to the problem of disability.

To say that the drive to off-shore labor is driven by wages is to simplify the argument. Manufacturers have turned the clock back 100 years and aren't doing it to provide you with "affordable" products but to line their products. Workers in China (and most of Asia) are little better than slaves. Manufacturers not only save on wages, but they don't have strikes, they don't have to deal with vacations, sick time, or benefits and they don't have to worry about whether or not the Cuyahoga River catches fire. As for quality, we have the lead scandal, the gypsum scandal, the milk scandal, the dog food scandal, and on and on. At least China executes those involved when they get caught, most likely because they got caught. There is no quality in the process.

Capitalism, along with most of the isms, is a failed system. The idealized version presented by Ayn Rand doesn't exist, never did, and never will because the minute they get a chance most people will manage their decisions by greed. They had their chance 100 years ago.

 

[Metalhead47]

Why bust your ass at UPS for that much when you could drive a bus? Try shipping that job to China.

+1 :banana:

Aren't Metro drivers like the highest paid in the country now? Thought I saw that somewhere. And given the people & routes they have to deal with, they deserve every penny.

Arent Toyota's made in California?

My wife's Frontier (Nissan) was designed here & built in Nashville I think. The fit & finish is excellent, and over the last 4 years I think I've spent less than $500 on actual repairs, and that includes buying a scan tool.

The bigger question is, why is it import car makers can come to the US, design a vehicle here, specifically for our market, build it here at the same union rates as Detroit, and have a vastly superior product?

 

[Jeff Hayes]

+1 :banana:

Aren't Metro drivers like the highest paid in the country now? Thought I saw that somewhere. And given the people & routes they have to deal with, they deserve every penny.



My wife's Frontier (Nissan) was designed here & built in Nashville I think. The fit & finish is excellent, and over the last 4 years I think I've spent less than $500 on actual repairs, and that includes buying a scan tool.

The bigger question is, why is it import car makers can come to the US, design a vehicle here, specifically for our market, build it here at the same union rates as Detroit, and have a vastly superior product?

The foreign cars are more assembled than made in America. Currently Toyota imports 52% of its parts, Honda is at 41% and Nissan 55%, look it up.

 

[Metalhead47]

The foreign cars are more assembled than made in America. Currently Toyota imports 52% of its parts, Honda is at 41% and Nissan 55%, look it up.

... and that's different from the "domestic" makers who do the same how?

 

[amlevin]

The foreign cars are more assembled than made in America. Currently Toyota imports 52% of its parts, Honda is at 41% and Nissan 55%, look it up.

I actually looked at the "Certification" label that was on the window of my truck that showed "% American built parts" and it was 80%

Compare that to the Canadian/Mexican built Fords, Chev's, and Dodges.

What the US manufacturers are doing is including Canada and Mexico as "Domestic" production due to NAFTA.

The Mustang is only 60% US made. Now that's a real "American Car" that isn't anymore.

 

[Aaron1124]

This thread has taken the third off route.

 

[Metalhead47]

This thread has taken the third off route.

Naw it's not off topic it's just taking the scenic route.

 

[ManInBlack]

I know I'm likely in the minority on my view, but typically if I believe OCing at a particular place has an easy potential to cause alarm , I will conceal. The purpose of my firearm is to get myself out of trouble. If I feel the scale of OCing has tipped to getting into trouble -- even if I feel I am within the legal standard -- I conceal. It's no cost to me to throw my shirt over the firearm. I'm pragmatic that way.

By that argument, we shouldn't say, write, or publish opinions that, while fully legal, are controversial and thus likely "to get us into trouble." By logical extension, this forum should be immediately disbanded. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

By that argument, we shouldn't say, write, or publish opinions that, while fully legal, are controversial and thus likely "to get us into trouble." By logical extension, this forum should be immediately disbanded. Do you see where I'm going with this?

You must be an extremist!!!!! Free speech inherit rights OMG!!!!

Yep Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back she was causing to much trouble.