Open Carry court case: West Allis City Courthouse on Tuesday February 17th at 8 AM

[smithman]

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Lammie wrote:

In regards to the last minute brief by the West Allis city attorney. Pointman said it short and sweet. "The other side plays dirty". They have a reason for doing such tactics. It is one of strategy. They realize that there is usually some high publicity in a case such as this. The other side realizes that there may be a number of pro defendant people in the courtroom at the initial hearing . By using the last minute brief technique they usually get a continuance hoping that at that future hearing there will be fewer defendant backers present. Usually the judge doesn't have much choice but to grant a continuance because there may be information in the last minute brief that is pivotal to the case. That is why we must stay vigilant. The other side does indeed play "dirty" and it is important that we "know thy enemy".

This is a great point.

People, THIS IS THE REAL DEAL. This is our case to take up and declare once and for all that OC IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

It's time to support Brad financially. Gene German is taking a collection and will make sure the money gets to Brad. Please send your check to Gene German, P O Box 202, Excelsior, MN 55331. He will make sure it gets to the right guy.

 

[hugh jarmis]

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People, THIS IS THE REAL DEAL. This is our case to take up and declare once and for all that OC IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

Yeah, I thought yesterday as I listened to the hearing (and the judge even mentioned it) that this case raises the constitutional issue (among other things such as if there was anything "otherwise disorderly" about wearing a gun on your hip).

The judge seemed pretty confident that while he was going to render his decision based upon whether there was anything "disorderly" that Brad did and leave the constitutional issue to higher courts, his decision was going to be scrutinized by the circuit and likely state supreme court. I felt yesterday that this will probably go that far.

I didn't hear any talk yesterday about collecting money for Brad. No offense intended here, I'm happy to give, but would like to hear it straight from the horses mouth. Gene has his email list, if he makes a request via that for money from Brad and lets us know how much is needed. I'll send money.I would like to know that the money goes directly to brad and not to a 'generic' cause (not that I might not support the generic cause) but I just feel more compelled to put money behind brads case rather than a number of other avenues.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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hugh jarmis wrote:

I didn't hear any talk yesterday about collecting money for Brad. No offense intended here, I'm happy to give, but would like to hear it straight from the horses mouth. Gene has his email list, if he makes a request via that for money from Brad and lets us know how much is needed. I'll send money.I would like to know that the money goes directly to brad and not to a 'generic' cause (not that I might not support the generic cause) but I just feel more compelled to put money behind brads case rather than a number of other avenues.

Divide and conquer.

 

[hugh jarmis]

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you'll have to excuse me if i don't understand the cryptic message doug.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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I understand and you are not faulted.

 

[Pointman]

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[Mike]

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Pointman wrote:

Gene German was a guest on Vicki McKenna's radio show on WISN Milwaukee on 12/16/2008 and explains what happened in court. Vicki then called for the Attorney General to weigh in with an opinion on the legality of openly carrying a weapon and took calls from the audience, expanding on the case.

Gene German was later a guest on Vicki McKenna's radio show on WIBA Madison on 12/16/2008 (starting at 2 minutes, 41 seconds).They talked about the effect of state laws being used to ban rights guaranteed by the Wisconsin Constitution and the details of the original event. They later discussed the State's position on the matter, including Governor Jim Doyle and Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen's historical standing. Vicki went on to discuss Vermont-style carry in Wisconsin and the possible legislative response. (22 minutes to 23:30)


Source (provides links to the audio, not additional text):

WISN web page: http://www.newstalk1130.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=vicki_mckenna.xml

WIBA web page: http://www.wiba.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=upfront.xml

Time for Wisconsin folks to contact their medi contacts with these links and suggest they do a story.

 

[Shanedrive]

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I'm a newby on this board. I'd just like to add that Vikki's show's are very good. If you can, listen in if you've the chance either over the air 1310 AM (WIBA)or on line. Actually, it was her show yesterday (the 16th) that tipped me off to the existence of OC.org.

I'm payin' attentionto this issue as closely as I can. I'll email the links to the local media in Madison (20 square miles surrounded by reality)with a little commentary but I"m guessin' they won't pick it up at all.

so far, I like it here and will duck in when I can. More 'n likely though, I'll be a lurker as I don't post on any boards very often.

Keep yer' heads above snow. We've a big 'un (snowstorm)comin in tomorrow or Friday.I drive one of those big ol' highway plow trucks. Went out at 3AM today and frankly, I'm pretty worn out right now. I'm sure I've a couple of long days ahead when thisnext snow blows through.

I'll be around.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Welcome

 

[trailblazer2003]

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Hello to you too Shanedrive. I've got some work coming up in Portage next month, thanks in advance for helping to keep those roads clear.

 

[GlockMeisterG21]

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Hi, I'm a little new to these forums. was passed the link from the wisconsin cc forums. I too was appalled by this incident. When I was 18 I joined a group run by the WAPD. It's actually a branch of Boy Scouts called the Explorer program. I was in this group for about 3 years until they started cutting back on the program. Some of the things I did in this program included ride-alongs, firearms and other weapons training, law and procedure, even a little about forensics. It was an extremly interesting and fun program. It gave me an insiders look into how that job is done. I have always held police officers in a high regard because of that. When I heard about what happened to Brad it turned my stomach. It also made me remember something I was told during my time there. I remember being told by one of the officers I was on ride-along with that the law for 'Disorderly Conduct" was purposely worded to be vauge and non-specific so that it could be applied to any situation not covered by any law. At the time it seemed entirely reasonable. Now, I see that it has been grossly abused.

Well. I'm gonna stop rambleing on and finish by saying this. I hope things will work out for you Brad and I belive that some good will come of all this.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Is there any way one can down to the courthouse and grab the case files in the criminal case so that it can be posted online?

 

[GlockMeisterG21]

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Theoretically the court transcripts should be a matter of public record. However I'm not sure that they'll be available until after everything has been completed. It would also be interesting to see the reports for the day in question. these too should be available. Your best bet is to simply call the WA Police Dept. and ask. It's been a while since I've live there so the number escapes me.

 

[Pointman]

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[GlockMeisterG21]

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Pointman wrote:

GlockMeisterG21 wrote:

Theoretically [we can get a bunch of information and post it on the Internet].

What is it you think you'll accomplish?

After years of waiting for someone other than you to open carry, David Olofson carries, finds out the hard way the police will arrest for open carry, and cuts a plea to avoid a long prison sentence. He later wrongfully gets convicted of transferring a machine gun, and is sentenced to additional prison time for way back when he open carried. Something sound dirty to you? Did this help protect your right to open carry in any way?

Years later, you finally have a guy who open carries in public despite a possible arrest (Parabellum), and gets arrested for wearing a holster. Not the best test case, is it? Do you realize he's facing jail time depending on how this goes down? Something sound dirty to you?

Now there's a guy who gets arrested for planting trees and you might have a good test case, but they shot nine months of jail time plus fees/fines/other that will bankrupt a Kennedy at him. Do you want to be in his place? So far he didn't go for a plea deal and has at least been holding his own against what appears to be yet another prosecutor who plays dirty. You want to dig into the case and what? Play attorney?

According to the news reports his business has taken a hard hit because of this, and the guy is stillstanding up for your rights. I'd say it's best to leave things alone and not make things worse.

If that's not enough reason, you can always open carry and see what happens, and tell everyone about it after getting out of jail, where they like to hold people for 72 hours "for questioning" -- if you can afford hundreds of dollars in bail, that is. Bring some toilet paper with you. It makes a good pillow.

First of all that is clearly not what I wrote and I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth.
Secondly, I was responding to a post made by Lonnie Wilson about court records being available to the public. If you took the time to read the post in it's entirety you'd notice that it doesn't say anything about interfering or "Playing attorney".
Thirdly, I agree that at this point the best thing anyone can do is "leave things alone and not make things worse".

As I reread your post for a fifth time I realize that it's possible that not all of it is referring to me. Fyi, when you start a post with a quote from another member then that post is generally directed towards them. My apologies if that is not the case.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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I don't understand how getting the criminal court case records from the municipal court, all documents that both the City and Brad's defense attorney either submitted or had knowledge of, can do anything to his case. They are court records, not confidential police reports, not communications between Brad and his attorney, which would be privileged anyway and we wouldn't get that.

Whenever one of ours files a lawsuit against a city or county for violation of 42USC1983, you notice that the court complaint is usually posted online.

The reason I want the case records is so we can look at West Allis' brief which caused them to continue the case for 3 months.

As for "waiting for someone other than you to open carry", I might add that I'm not from Wisconsin so therefor that statement doesn't apply to me. I WOULD open carry there if I lived anywhere near.

 

[hugh jarmis]

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I've never really figured out the sentiment on this forum. Perhaps because there is no cohesive one and thats understandable, but when the same people talk out of both sides of their mouth...

We should open carry... Oh no wait... I've had people PMme telling me NOT to open carry.

I offer to host an open carry cookout. 3 people respond and I get a PM from pointman telling me "its not a good time for an open carry cookout".

And now pointman is telling people to buck up and open carry or "shut up"

I seriously don't get it.

According to the news reports his business has taken a hard hit because of this, and the guy is stillstanding up for your rights. I'd say it's best to leave things alone and not make things worse.

So what is it? Get involved... Don't get involved?

Get involved only if you have the time to get arrested and get your weapon confiscated?

Hell, every thread on Brad Krause's arrest was closed until this one? I knew NO details about Brad's arrest until I got an email a few days ago. How could one have made a decision if Brad's situation was one that they would even want to get behind in support of without the facts of the case? And I wondered why there was only 8 or so of us in the courtroom. All the secrecy and stuff... Its impossible to

I mean @#$%, if I was an observer reading this forum I'd be so f'ing confused about what to do "do I help, do I not help" I would just throw my arms up in frustration and go away.

And don't ANYONE dare throwing private messages at me. If you have something to say, man the f up and say it on here.

And now Pointman is suggesting people open carry themselves or leave things alone? Well what the hell is this forum about if its not sharing information.

If you want someone else to open carry wouldn't you want them to have all the information they possibly could before they do so?

I mean Brad's case if you ask me is a PERFECT scenario that represents our cause, and it was treated as a black-op until a few days before the hearing? We could have had months to get a courtroom full of people there. We could have had months to get television stations aware. But its all hush hush.

And if there is an issue of not wanting the prosecutors to get inside information about the strategy of the defense then why do we have ANY discussions of the laws on here? Every discussion of the disorderly conduct statute represents information that prosecutors could use to decide how to attack what we would (if we were ever arrested) use in our defense.


edited to add:

Everytime we get a new face on this board who's gung ho about helping they get a nice warm welcome "smack in the face" by the "inner circle"

We get some nice plugs from Vicki McKenna's show about opencarry.org, some new people show up and jump in the fray and get immediately pounced on. Good grief. Instead of capitalizing on the new interest, there are those who throw water cold water on it. well done...

 

[Mike]

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Yeah, I gotta agree - if there are public court docs, somebody go get them and post the darn things - it's time to lance this anti-open carry boil in Wisconsin.

 

[Pointman]

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[hugh jarmis]

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If you lay out game plans for the prosecution, they will look at it and figure out a new strategy

So whats the difference between the generic discussions that routinely take place on here regarding the statutes and how they could be argued/defended and discussions of a specific case?

Last time I looked I haven't seen Attorney Kass on here laying out his game plan, so any public records that are posted, discussed is just conversation/conjecture. Again... we do this weekly.

Nobody has openly carried in Milwaukee until now, and the people who have done it seem to be doing a good job of taking your place in court, jail, and wherever else (yes, they went to jail). They are not fighting against open carry, they're fighting for it. And this "black op" thing: Do you think they don't know what they're doing? You may not like how things get done, but you're not the one in the line of fire, and they seem to be doing a good job on your behalf. Instead of doing what you want, ask those people what they want, because they're on the hook for you.

Pointman... In your role as resident whack-a-mole to people who show up here with good intentions, perhaps you might put together a "read this first" thread that can be stickied at the top of the forum. One with instructions so that well-intentioned people know what is proper behavior, 'acceptable' questions to ask, 'acceptable' topics to raise.

I'm not and have never asked attorneys or people who've been arrested to share anything they don't want to. But so what if I did... they are big boys and they can "just say no"

But I do have a problem with comments like this:

I'd say it's best to leave things alone and not make things worse.

Glockmeister is new here, he shows up, and2 posts later, you quote him (with your own warped perception added to the end) and start ranting. You offer NO suggestion of what someone CAN do. You offer nothing constructive. You just say its "best to leave things alone and not make things worse"

Well damn... Welcome to the forum hey!!!!

Why don't you just post "welcome, now sit down and shut up" its a bit less wordy but the exact same result.

You know other new visitors to the forum might not be privy to your explanations to Glockmeister via personal message. They see a new poster who gets an instant smack-down from you and probably decide not to participate.

Why promote the siteand hope for new participants? Is this just a place for voyeurs to show up and lurk or do we want people to get involved. To discuss the statutes. To discuss the PUBLIC RECORD on cases.

You have spent plenty of time telling people what not to do. You've made it crystal clear to all the "rubes" who don't have time to get arrested and fight the fight in court themselves that they are best to "not make things worse".

Why don't you start by welcoming people and tellingthem what they can do? Why don't you start representing the cause weALL are fighting for whether its by participating in this forum, showing up at hearings, or making calls to our elected officials by encouraging participation and making people feel welcome.