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Open Carry in a police station in medford oregon

Warren Drouin

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May 27, 2011
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125
Location
Medford, Oregon, United States
@shlitz. I was very nervous even though I knew the law and it was my first time to filled a complaint while armed. I did not mean to seem aggressive whatsoever in this video and also some of the kiddish comment thing help to keep me somewhat calm. My hands were shaking so bad I could not hold the papers. I also forgot to charge the battery which is clearly my fault. But I tried my best and even if some video seem were not 100% perfect, but I did had a witness and there are camera in police station too. Also there was not really important, they just decided that I was correct and unhand-cuffed me, gave back my firearm, and release me. That was pretty much it.
 

Teddybearfrmhell

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Cottage Grove, Oregon, USA
Also once license under ORS 166.291 and
166.292 to carry a concealed handgun. I can legally carry any firearm open or concealed in any public building. It did not say it need to be concealed, just that you have to be license under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry concealed Handgun. which I am. ^_^


i am well aware that there are other issues here that i did not bring up, i didnt need to, i stated that it was about open carry of a firearm AND then cited the only law i needed to to make my point. i find that sometimes its easier to get the idea across with less stuff in the way.
 

Teddybearfrmhell

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@shlitz. I was very nervous even though i knew the law and it was my first time to filled a complaint while armed. I did not mean to seem aggressive whatsoever in this video and also some of the kiddish comment thing help to keep me somewhat calm. My hands were shaking so bad i could not hold the papers. I also forgot to charge the battery which is clearly my fault. But i tried my best and even if some video seem were not 100% perfect, but i did had a witness and there are camera in police station too. Also there was not really important, they just decided that i was correct and unhand-cuffed me, gave back my firearm, and release me. That was pretty much it.

did you file your harassment charges????
 

Warren Drouin

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Medford, Oregon, United States
Yeah I did for the encounter of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSggnLNGgxs&feature=related

I did not filed any other one because it seem to me that they are just going to ignore it and nothing else. I even ask if they would like to see the video and he denied. I also try to have him answer how a right can be subject to a crime. SGT Boone said that if 5 people called it is disorderly conduct.
 

Motofixxer

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Somewhere over the Rainbow
Handcuffing tends to indicate arrest, moving somebody to a room and preventing a friend from being close by also seems to indicate arrest.

I have posted this before but it very helpful here too, so this might help to clear things up.


DETAIN. To retain as the possession of personalty. First Nat. Bank v. Yocom, 96 Or. 438, 189 P. 220, 221. To arrest, to check, to delay, to hinder, to hold, or keep in custody, to retard, to re strain from proceeding, to stay, to stop. People v. Smith, 17 Cal.App.2d 468, 62 P.2d 436, 438. (Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 535)

ARREST. To deprive a person of his liberty by legal authority. Taking, under real or assumed authority, custody of another for the purpose of holding or detaining him to answer a criminal charge or civil demand. Ex parte Sherwood, 29 Tex.App. 334, 15 S.W. 812. Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest." Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213. It is a restraints however slight, on another's liberty to come and go. Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112. It is the taking, seizing or detaining the person of another, touching or putting hands upon him in the execution of process, or any act indicating an intention to arrest. U. S. v. Benner, Bald. 234, 239, Fed.Cas.No.14,568; State v. District Court of Eighth Judicial Dist. in and for Cascade County, 70 Mont. 378, 225 P. 1000, 1001; Hoppes v. State, 105 P.2d 433, 439, 70 Okl.Cr. 179.(Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 140)

If your home is being searched, You are being detained. You are being hindered, held, kept in custody, restrained and stopped from continuing your breakfast or going about your business. A detention is a form of arrest, by definition. In a home search or handcuffs I could guarantee you will be touched, and have hands put on you in the execution of process.

So, a detainment IS in any legal sense and definition an Arrest!!!




I would also recommend not drawing any unnecessary attention to your firearm, it's not a natural thing a person would do and I believe would immediately trigger a mental stability indicator. You don't walk up to someone and say I'm wearing black shoes...unless there is something wrong with you. If your asked...that's a different scenario.

I'm sure the camera man and Warren were intimidated and scared...the officers perceive that through experience. When asked by the officer to move way down the hallway. Politely decline, say something like I'm not comfortable there, but I am here. I need to video for his safety and mine. You were not preventing or obstructing anything by sitting across the hall on the bench. They want the camera as far from them as possible and will try and use force to do it. But they knew it was being videoed and so they politely asked. You are not obstructing, or being disorderly as long as you remain quiet and polite.

I would also strongly recommend especially an expected situation such as this, for each person to carry a second audio recorder.

For any of the critics, lets see a video of you walking into a bee's nest and see how you respond while under pressure. Was everything perfect no...nobody I know is.

Mr cameraman...hold video still, keep an eye on what your pointing at, and keep quiet. Just my opinion
 

Teddybearfrmhell

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Mar 12, 2010
Messages
348
Location
Cottage Grove, Oregon, USA
Yeah I did for the encounter of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSggnLNGgxs&feature=related

I did not filed any other one because it seem to me that they are just going to ignore it and nothing else. I even ask if they would like to see the video and he denied. I also try to have him answer how a right can be subject to a crime. SGT Boone said that if 5 people called it is disorderly conduct.


"SGT Boone said that if 5 people called it is disorderly conduct." i didnt hear this at all on the video/audio you posted.

btw, demanding to see the cops credential UPFRONT puts you in a confrontational light..... you need to chill a little and act like you havent done anything wrong. the more amped up you are the more amped up the cops will be.
 

Warren Drouin

Regular Member
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
125
Location
Medford, Oregon, United States
Sorry, I did not record that part of officer boone saying "disorderly conduct can be charge on me if 5 people called, even if it a right". I also went back to the police station after the battery charged and waited there till officer boone returned. I also had a confrontation with an officer (while polite, yet wanting) that wanted me to be outside for him, his reason...Because I was scaring the officers while sitting down with a firearms on my hip.
 

Teddybearfrmhell

Regular Member
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Mar 12, 2010
Messages
348
Location
Cottage Grove, Oregon, USA
Sorry, I did not record that part of officer boone saying "disorderly conduct can be charge on me if 5 people called, even if it a right". I also went back to the police station after the battery charged and waited there till officer boone returned. I also had a confrontation with an officer (while polite, yet wanting) that wanted me to be outside for him, his reason...Because I was scaring the officers while sitting down with a firearms on my hip.

confrontation : a state of conflict between two antagonistic forces

contact : connection or interaction; communication


confrontation implies combative

contact implies communication

is it always, every time confrontation?
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
What a dumb stunt. I hope they yank your permit for 100 years...

For what reason? Conducting lawful activity in a public office?

Would you want my permit yanked for open carrying down the sidewalk adjacent to a school? How about at the airport?

Where in the world does a police officer get the idea that a law abiding citizen....you know he is or he'd be in lock up now wouldn't he......should only go to a park that the officer admits is a dangerous place (makes me wonder why they're not fixing that) if he's unarmed? Wouldn't a REASONABLE person think that if they are going to try to enjoy THEIR park and the police have not secured it's safety, that carrrying a lawful firearm would be the responsible and prudent thing to do?
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
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Aug 13, 2009
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2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Tedde I think I understand your point now. It's "what happened right before the cuffing that isn't on the video". Of course even if we new the OC'er to be absolutely honest and on top of his "game", not having video of that part brings some doubt into the matter in any pursuit of remediating the situation.

I think a records request for video/audio recorded by the city/PD might solve that. There is definitely need to work on the A/V technology to ensure a complete record, especially when "walking into the hornets nest".

You're letter looked good, I think I'd have just given him the citation without the text in a first letter but it tells them a) People know it happened and b) People know the specific law and the city PD is on thini ice at best.
 

We-the-People

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Aug 13, 2009
Messages
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White City, Oregon, USA
Okay......what does everyone think of this letter? Don't mind the formatting, for some reason it didn't come through with the cut and paste. It has proper indents and such. Incidents ONE and FIVE will be added to it once I talk to the appropriate people.



## August, 2011

Tim George
Chief of Police, City of Medford
411 W. 8th St.
Medford, OR 97501

As you and your officers should already know, it is not unlawful to openly carry firearms in the state of Oregon and that, like most states, no license is required to open carry, whether on foot or in a vehicle. In fact, Sheriff Winters has stated publicly, on the Bill Meyers show, that “open carry is legal in Oregon”. Also, that while firearms carry “in or on” a “public building” (as defined in ORS 166.360) is prohibited by ORS 166.370, section (3) (d) of that ORS specifically exempts persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun. This exemption does not limit the carry of firearms to only handguns, nor does it require them to be concealed, only that a person carrying “in or on” a “public building” be licensed. It should also be well known that ORS 166.262 specifically prohibits arrest for violation of 166.250 or 370 if the person has a CHL in their possession. It should be noted that possession of a CHL on the person is not required but only prohibits, through ORS 166.262, arrest. If a CHL is not in the possession of the individual, the fact that they did, in fact, have one at the time they were arrested becomes an affirmative defense to the charge under ORS 166.370(4). Finally, I am sure that you and your officers are well aware that the United States Supreme Court has established that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment for the police to seize a person absent reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of crime afoot. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).

Unfortunately, several recent incidents involving officers of the Medford Police Department have come to my attention and those incidents appear to violate one or more of the above mentioned “basics”.

INCIDENT ONE:
REDACTED UNTIL EXACT DETAILS ARE CONFIRMED


Another individual has been repeatedly contacted over the last several months, with the most recent incident occurring this week. While most officers have reportedly been friendly and merely making consensual contact to determine if there was cause for concern, three of the most recent incidents raise serious concerns.

INICIDENT TWO:
The first of these involves three officers contacting this individual, the lead officer of whom stated “I know who you are”. The officer informed the individual that he had been trespassed from an Albertsons parking lot which, if true, is perfectly within his legal authority. However, the officer then attempted to intimidate the citizen with a threat of “disorderly conduct” because multiple people were concerned. This claim by the officer is either uninformed or purposely intended to intimidate. ORS 166.023 and 166.025 are the disorderly conduct statutes in this state. ORS 166.023 only applies to a situation involving a “false report” while ORS 166.025 lists seven specific actions, none of which apply to the lawful carry of a firearm.

INCIDENT THREE:
The second incident with this individual occurred when officers of your department again made contact with this individual at Hawthorne Park while responding to a service call due to a fight. A single officer approached the individual, with some agitation which can be expected when responding to a call of a fight and finding an armed individual. However, when informed that the fight was in another part of the park and directed to that location, the officer turned his back on the armed individual and departed. This would indicate that the officer did not consider the individual dangerous. Yet he returned with at least three other officers and proceeded to threaten the individual with detention and to “lecture” him as to the officer’s feelings on the issue of lawful carry. Ironically, the officer made statements to the effect that the park was unsafe so why would he open carry, apparently preferring that a law abiding citizen be at the mercy of criminals in a public park that his department is incapable of policing.

As the officer obviously, by turning his back when departing at the first contact, did not consider the individual dangerous, his return, with multiple officers, to confront a law abiding citizen, is nothing short of intimidation under the color of authority. Further, editorializing against open carry is not the province of law enforcement. If your officers have any objection to open carry, they should contact their state legislator on their off duty time and not use the color of authority behind their badges and uniforms to stifle both the right to bear arms and the First Amendment right of expressive conduct to open carry firearms.

INCIDENT FOUR:
The third incident for this individual occurred that same day when he went to the Medford PD to file a complaint regarding the earlier incident. In the hallway, as a courtesy because he was openly carrying, he notified the first officer he saw that he was licensed, openly carrying, and there to file a complaint. That officer went through a doorway and left the individual in the public hallway for a fairly lengthy amount of time during which, no police officers were present and at least one individual came out of the offices and walked calmly through the hallway indicating that there was certainly no alarm within the building. Sometime later, an officer exited an office door, proceeded to the outer door of the building, apparently to read the sign there stating that firearms are prohibited in the building (citing ORS 166.360 as the authority). This officer then detained and cuffed the individual, escorted him out of the hallway while stating “you can’t carry it in here” and into a room off the hallway at which time he was also disarmed. This officer, joined by multiple other officers, then tried to sort out the laws and one of them stated something to the effect of calling the sheriff’s department to figure it out. Additionally, an individual who was recording audio and video, and had announced that fact repeatedly, and was quietly sitting on a bench in the hall, was told to move down the hallway a substantial distance. There are several areas of concern with this incident.

First, the signage on the entrance to the building incorrectly cites ORS 166.360 as the prohibition against carry of firearms in the building. ORS 166.360 merely defines “public building” and other terms. The prohibition is contained in ORS 166.370. However, ORS 166.370 (3) (d) exempts persons with a CHL.

Second, that one of your officers would rely upon a door sign, as justification to detain an individual, indicates a lack of training.

Third, to make a detention and then try to determine if any laws were broken violates both the intent and the letter of black-letter law, well established case law, and the fourth amendment civil rights of the individual.
Fourth, while officer safety needs to be taken into consideration, telling the quietly seated videographer, though worded as a request, presented as a demand under color of authority, at a minimum gives the appearance that something improper may, or may about to be, happening.

While the individual was eventually released and given the complaint forms that he came to obtain, this incident is further evidence of an ongoing problem within your department.

INCIDENT FIVE:
REDACTED UNTIL EXACT DETAILS ARE CONFIRMED
First paragraph below goes with the redacted incident


Non-consensual police stops of open carriers for simply open carrying, as this incident seems to be, are per se unlawful and a violation of the fourth amendment. That officers, absent RAS, would draw firearms and aim them at a law abiding citizen, is not acceptable in the City of Medford!

While these are the only incidents that I am currently aware of, the actions of your officers indicate that there are training or personnel deficiencies within your department. These issues can have significant consequences to crime prevention and the finances of both the department (i.e. City) and individual officers. Unlawful stops of open carriers will result in suppression of evidence even if unlawful conduct is uncovered, potentially allowing criminals to get off the hook. In Casad v State of Washington, the Appeals court suppressed evidence of the unlawful possession of firearms because law enforcement seized a man for merely openly carrying firearms in public. This result is not unusual, see Goodman v. Commonwealth, 2007 WL 2988343(Va.App. 2007) (same result as Casad), because the result is a matter of federal Constitutional law commanded by the United States Supreme Court and will apply equally in Oregon.

As it is clearly established law that the open carry of handguns in holsters is lawful without a CHL, qualified immunity does not attach to your officers for the unlawful harassment, ID checks, gun serial number checks, etc. It is also likely that officers will forfeit qualified immunity with a long gun carried in a non threatening manner (i.e. slung, in a case, etc.). Further, by way of this letter, you as the Chief of Police, and the Office of the Chief of Police, are on actual notice in this matter, subjecting you to personal liability for damage claims under 42 USC 1983. See Will v. Michigan Dept. of State Police, 491 U.S. 58 (1989).

If you are not aware of it, there is a growing nationwide movement in which law abiding citizens “open carry” firearms to both provide for their personal defense and exercise their constitutional rights. Most who participate in this activity are highly knowledgeable of firearms and constitutional law and may even carry handouts for individuals who approach them. Many of these individuals also practice “sterile carry” in that they do not carry identification and will refuse to provide their names when contacted because of their lawful carry of a firearm. Though officers are free to request identification, as Oregon is not a “stop and ID” state, absent RAS officers have no authority to require identification be produced or given verbally.

It should be obvious that a number of people in the Medford area are now participating in “open carry” and equally clear that at least some of your officers are not sufficiently trained in properly handling encounters with law abiding citizens who are carrying firearms. It also appears that some of them engage in intimidation and lecturing their opinions under color of authority. For these reasons it would be prudent to ensure that your entire force is properly trained in how to lawfully contact these individuals. As I previously mentioned, this is not simply a second amendment issue and is more often a matter of fourth amendment violations.

It is the constitutional right of open carriers to enjoy the same freedom of movement and right of assembly in society as those wishing to carry concealed, or not at all. The purpose of law enforcement is to help ensure open carriers enjoy these freedoms, not to stifle them. I would like a response indicating what immediate and ongoing actions you intend to take to rectify these issues, not just for “open carriers” but for all citizens, as the intimidation and opinionating actions of your officers are not likely to be confined to open carriers. If I can be of any assistance in investigating this matter or formulating a solution, please feel free to contact me in that regard as well.

If I have not received an initial reply by ****__DATE_**** I will be left with no choice but to consider my next course of action.

Sincerely,

Redacted (name)
Redacted (email)

Edited to make four (4) corrections and to add the line explaining that one paragraph below a redacted incident in concerning that redacted incident.
 
Last edited:

bigtoe416

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That was an amazing letter We-the-people. Your prose is frighteningly good.
 

We-the-People

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White City, Oregon, USA
That was an amazing letter We-the-people. Your prose is frighteningly good.


Thanks, it's not 100% my original work as I used a Washington State letter from this website, from the law library I think, which contained many of the case law citations (possibly all of them). The Oregon statues and all of the descriptions of the local incidents obviously were mine. I would guestimate 70% my work and 30% cut and pasted.

And I did that at like 4-6am after being up all night. I just edited out FOUR errors that I found. Yes, I'm anal. LOL
 

donny

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...For what reason? Conducting lawful activity in a public office?...

Oh please. You know full well what the problem is. All I see in the OP is yet another immature, even unstable, 20-something OCer on the way to screwing his life up and then deeply regretting it after he grows up. He should get a clue even if you can't...
 

We-the-People

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White City, Oregon, USA
Oh please. You know full well what the problem is. All I see in the OP is yet another immature, even unstable, 20-something OCer on the way to screwing his life up and then deeply regretting it after he grows up. He should get a clue even if you can't...

Yes he's young, yes he's "in your face", but he is legal. Should we not do thing that are legal if someone else doesn't like it? If that's the case none of us could do anything as there is someone that doesn't like anything that you can think of.

What I find sad is the sad state of training of our local PD and the unprofessional personal grudge that one or more of them seem to have simply because people choose to exercise a lawful right.
 

Warren Drouin

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May 27, 2011
Messages
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Location
Medford, Oregon, United States
@Donny

I don't completely understand you Donny, I in no way was the aggressive or an ass to them, yet I was very nervous and shaky. I was abiding to the law and I wanted to filled a complaint with the police station. I try to informed the first officer that I have a license to carry a firearm to any public building, so I would not have a bad encounter with the other officer. Yet, even after I informed the officer, still I was detained and my rights were violated. I just had the BALLS to do it, even if I did not do it perfectly to other people view.

Also, you should read the opencarry.org forum RULES before posting!

(9) HATE IS NOT WELCOME HERE: Any posts attacking others based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity, or anything other than opposition to gun rights is NOT WELCOME HERE! We reserve the right to impose immediate bans for such behavior.
 
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