Open carrying confused....

[Phil McCracken]

Small_Arms_Collector, my first CC class (pre-shall issue days) was full of misinformation! And it was taught by the local Asst. Prosecutor and sheriff.

I wasn't aware of CC classes when I got my CCW.

 

[griffin]

I wasn't aware of CC classes when I got my CCW.

I've still got the cert. and can scan and post if you care. Contained range time and everything. It was exactly like what we have now with "shall issue" but was years before "shall issue."

It was mildly amusing when the Ingham County gun board wanted to deny my "CCW" (as I think it was called then), telling me they usually want to see a certification of CCW training. Then I pulled it out and put it before them. That shut them up. For a minute. They were bastards.

 

[Phil McCracken]

I've still got the cert. Contained range time and everything. It was exactly like what we have now with "shall issue" but was years before "shall issue."

When I got mine, I had 3 letters of reference, a letter stating why I wanted a CCW, and an application. I submitted them. The gunboard reviewed them. And I got a letter in response to appear before the gunboard. They asked me the purpose for a CCW. (Self defense.) And it was approved. Don't recall any class or cert.

I don't really care to see your cert.

Having seen your edit to include the county you applied in, I can see why you had your cert.

 

[griffin]

Having seen your edit to include the county you applied in, I can see why you had your cert.

They were pricks. They told me I didn't need a CC license. They told me I couldn't carry at work (they knew my employer's policy). They tried to give me a hundred reasons why I didn't "need" a CC license. I looked them all square in the eye and told them my life was no less important than the uniformed Michigan State Police officer sitting at the desk in that room. I don't think they liked that answer.

My renewal application is in review right now. If I have to go before the board again, this will be the fourth time. :banghead:

 

[Bronson]

I would say that you are the exception, not the rule. I now know that you do, Scott Webb does, and Mark Cortis does, but I have heard stories upon stories of those with too much misinformation.

We can't put all the blame on the instructor's shoulders. They can only present the information, it is up to the student to hear it and learn it. A young man I work with just turned 21 and took his CPL course. He took it from reputable, knowledgable people that teach a good class. He knows this is something I'm into so he was telling me about his class and the stuff he learned. You know what? He had a bunch of stuff wrong. For example, he thought that you could use deadly force against any person that you witnessed comimtting ANY felony. I know for certain that he was not taught that. When I started questioning his assertions he thought about it and realized that wasn't what he was taught but it was what his mind filled in.

Many of us here have studied and debated these laws for many many hours and we still get things wrong. Do you think there is any way possible for an instructor to teach a complete gun law newbie to precisely navigate the labyrinth that is MI gun & self-defense laws in one 5 hour class? No, there isn't. There is nothing any instructor can do to force someone to learn something. All an isntructor can do is present factual information and hope beyond all hope that the people in the class are picking up what he's putting down. But the sad reality is that no matter how good the class or how factual the information not one single person in that room is going to come out of that class without remembering at least one, and probably more, things incorrectly....and that's not the instructor's fault.

Bronson

 

[NHCGRPR45]

We can't put all the blame on the instructor's shoulders. They can only present the information, it is up to the student to hear it and learn it. A young man I work with just turned 21 and took his CPL course. He took it from reputable, knowledgable people that teach a good class. He knows this is something I'm into so he was telling me about his class and the stuff he learned. You know what? He had a bunch of stuff wrong. For example, he thought that you could use deadly force against any person that you witnessed comimtting ANY felony. I know for certain that he was not taught that. When I started questioning his assertions he thought about it and realized that wasn't what he was taught but it was what his mind filled in.

Many of us here have studied and debated these laws for many many hours and we still get things wrong. Do you think there is any way possible for an instructor to teach a complete gun law newbie to precisely navigate the labyrinth that is MI gun & self-defense laws in one 5 hour class? No, there isn't. There is nothing any instructor can do to force someone to learn something. All an isntructor can do is present factual information and hope beyond all hope that the people in the class are picking up what he's putting down. But the sad reality is that no matter how good the class or how factual the information not one single person in that room is going to come out of that class without remembering at least one, and probably more, things incorrectly....and that's not the instructor's fault.

Bronson

Yes, I agree. I give my contact info to my classes so they can contact me and ask me if there is something they didn't understand or miss-heard. And I always try my best to make certain what I am saying is as correct as I can make it. And when I don't know or am uncertain I tell them exactly that but also tell them that I will either find the correct answer or send them to someone who can. Assuming is easy to do but assumption is the mother of all screw ups and MI gun laws can be confusing and also skills in a basic CPL class are a bit weak in actual use of a defensive pistol. Its up to the individual to go and seak out the more advanced information and training thats out there, and be responseable for doing it or not. I would say most CPL instructors are very good at presenting the information to the students in front of them, and that most students are very interested in learning what the instructor has to say, but each student is an individual. As such each and everyone will have a slightly diffrent take on what was said, heard or read. Individual learning is best done by the individual. But with help from the instructor when needed. IMO

 

[NHCGRPR45]

If they don't you can sue them.

Yes, and we know how long that will take. And he does not get his CPL till the case is over. Thats a loss for him, even if he wins,,,,,,,eventually. Get a recert I will even give him one no charge to get his CPL faster then he can join the fight better armed to get real change accomplished. Some think everything can be fixed by a lawsuit, and yes things can indeed be helped along that way but it costs in time and money. Both usually cost more than the person is able to pay.

Not a dig at you Mr. Collector.

Also, Yes I know that no resert is needed by law. When someone calls I tell them that very thing, however I also ask if they would like to sit in on a class and go to the range and that there is a small fee if there is room in the class and ammo is extra if they would like me to provide it for them as well as rental firearms.

 

[Xanaseyr]

For example, he thought that you could use deadly force against any person that you witnessed comimtting ANY felony.

Judge, jury, and executioner, or as an appropriate response to a physical threat encountered while conducting an arrest?

 

[WilDChilD]

For example, he thought that you could use deadly force against any person that you witnessed comimtting ANY felony. Bronson

When I was just starting out I read the same thing on MCRGO. I almost started a thread recently to see if anybody else has ever heard of that. I am positive i read that. I will try to look for it again tonight but I know it was on MCRGO.

 

[stainless1911]

I wasn't aware of CC classes when I got my CCW.

When I was just starting out I read the same thing on MCRGO. I almost started a thread recently to see if anybody else has ever heard of that. I am positive i read that. I will try to look for it again tonight but I know it was on MCRGO.

I've heard that as well.

 

[Bubba72]

my bad.....i should've been given more info on my cpl class and cert.

I did take and pass the class in Sept. 2006, i applied and was denied and went in front of the review board and was still denied for the fact i have a misdemeanor on my record from early 2006 and that misdimeanor is for shining, Michigan law states that shining is illiegal in during the month of November, which from my lawyer that i had to get up north said that shining translate to anything from a flashlight to someone even turning around at night and if the headlights shine into a field where deer are present it's illegal UNLESS they're a utility worker, delivery agent of any kind.

Now keep in mind that i applied in Sept. 2006 and recieved my denial letter in May of 2007, my understanding is that they have 7 days to approve or deny once applied.

Review board told me they were denying me because of a misdimeanor.....isn't a speeding ticket a misdimeanor? Yet they were giving out cpl's to people who had in the past had DUI's and had letters from churches and other community programs.

So i then decided to wait and try again and that was almost 2yrs ago, I still have my cert but haven't applied cuz from my understanding is that yes they DO NOT expire, but wayne county doesn't accept them if the cert is over 6 months old.

with that said i even talked to a lawyer up in shelby twp. who told me that my misdimeanor IS NOT grounds for denial and if i applied again and denied, that they would have to prove that i'm a danger mentally to myself or others.

Which brings me oc and see where i stand on the whole cpl issue. Keep in mind that other than that misdimeanor i have absolutely NOTHING on my record prior to and after......

 

[Bronson]

Judge, jury, and executioner, or as an appropriate response to a physical threat encountered while conducting an arrest?

Does it really matter? It wasn't true and isn't what he was taught. His mind filled in the blanks with what he thought was the law. The point is that even in a class based on the most stringent facts the students aren't going to catch or remember it all and they will fill in the gaps with all kinds of strange stuff....and then blame the instructor because they were "taught wrong."

Bronson

 

[Bronson]

with that said i even talked to a lawyer up in shelby twp. who told me that my misdimeanor IS NOT grounds for denial

You were hosed.

MCL 28.425b

Here's the list of disqualifying misdemeanors:

(h) The applicant has not been convicted of a misdemeanor violation of any of the following in the 8 years immediately preceding the date of application:

(i) Section 617a of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.617a (failing to stop when involved in a personal injury accident).

(ii) Section 625 of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625, punishable as provided in subsection (9)(b) of that section (operating while intoxicated, second offense).

(iii) Section 625m of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625m punishable under subsection (4) of that section (operating a commercial vehicle with alcohol content, second offense).

(iv) Section 626 of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.626 (reckless driving).

(v) Section 904(1) of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.904 (operating while license suspended or revoked), punishable as a second or subsequent offense.

(vi) Section 185 of the aeronautics code of the state of Michigan, 1945 PA 327, MCL 259.185 (operating aircraft while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance with prior conviction).

(vii) Section 29 of the weights and measures act, 1964 PA 283, MCL 290.629 (hindering or obstructing certain persons performing official weights and measures duties).

(viii) Section 10 of the motor fuels quality act, 1984 PA 44, MCL 290.650 (hindering, obstructing, assaulting, or committing bodily injury upon director or authorized representative).

(ix) Section 81134 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.81134, punishable under subsection (5) or (6) of that section (operating ORV under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense).

(x) Section 82127 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.82127 (operating a snowmobile under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance), punishable as a second or subsequent offense under section 82128(1)(b) or (c) of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.82128.

(xi) Section 80176 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.80176, and punishable under section 80177(1)(b) (operating vessel under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense).

(xii) Section 7403 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7403.

(xiii) Section 353 of the railroad code of 1993, 1993 PA 354, MCL 462.353 (operating locomotive under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, or while visibly impaired), punishable under subsection (4) of that section.

(xiv) Section 7 of 1978 PA 33, MCL 722.677 (displaying sexually explicit matter to minors).

(xv) Section 81 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.81 (assault or domestic assault).

(xvi) Section 81a(1) or (2) of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.81a (aggravated assault or aggravated domestic assault).

(xvii) Section 115 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.115 (breaking and entering or entering without breaking).

(xviii) Section 136b(6) of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.136b (fourth degree child abuse).

(xix) Section 145a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.145a (accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purposes).

(xx) Section 145n of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.145n (vulnerable adult abuse).

(xxi) Section 157b(3)(b) of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.157b (solicitation to commit a felony).

(xxii) Section 215 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.215 (impersonating peace officer or medical examiner).

(xxiii) Section 223 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.223 (illegal sale of a firearm or ammunition).

(xxiv) Section 224d of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224d (illegal use or sale of a self-defense spray).

(xxv) Section 226a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.226a (sale or possession of a switchblade).

(xxvi) Section 227c of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.227c (improper transportation of a loaded firearm).

(xxvii) Section 228 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.228 (failure to have a pistol inspected).

(xxviii) Section 229 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.229 (accepting a pistol in pawn).

(xxix) Section 232 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.232 (failure to register the purchase of a firearm or a firearm component).

(xxx) Section 232a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.232a (improperly obtaining a pistol, making a false statement on an application to purchase a pistol, or using false identification to purchase a pistol).

(xxxi) Section 233 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.233 (intentionally aiming a firearm without malice).

(xxxii) Section 234 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.234 (intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice).

(xxxiii) Section 234d of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.234d (possessing a firearm on prohibited premises).

(xxxiv) Section 234e of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.234e (brandishing a firearm in public).

(xxxv) Section 234f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.234f (possession of a firearm by an individual less than 18 years of age).

(xxxvi) Section 235 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.235 (intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice causing injury).

(xxxvii) Section 235a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.235a (parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon free school zone).

(xxxviii) Section 236 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.236 (setting a spring gun or other device).

(xxxix) Section 237 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237 (possessing a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug).

(xl) Section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a (weapon free school zone violation).

(xli) Section 335a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.335a (indecent exposure).

(xlii) Section 411h of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.411h (stalking).

(xliii) Section 520e of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.520e (fourth degree criminal sexual conduct).

(xliv) Section 1 of 1952 PA 45, MCL 752.861 (reckless, careless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in injury or death).

(xlv) Section 2 of 1952 PA 45, MCL 752.862 (careless, reckless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in property damage).

(xlvi) Section 3a of 1952 PA 45, MCL 752.863a (reckless discharge of a firearm).

(xlvii) A violation of a law of the United States, another state, or a local unit of government of this state or another state substantially corresponding to a violation described in subparagraphs (i) to (xlvi).

(i) The applicant has not been convicted of a misdemeanor violation of any of the following in the 3 years immediately preceding the date of application unless the misdemeanor violation is listed under subdivision (h):

(i) Section 625 of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625 (operating under the influence).

(ii) Section 625a of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625a (refusal of commercial vehicle operator to submit to a chemical test).

(iii) Section 625k of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625k (ignition interlock device reporting violation).

(iv) Section 625l of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625l (circumventing an ignition interlocking device).

(v) Section 625m of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.625m, punishable under subsection (3) of that section (operating a commercial vehicle with alcohol content).

(vi) Section 185 of the aeronautics code of the state of Michigan, 1945 PA 327, MCL 259.185 (operating aircraft under the influence).

(vii) Section 81134 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.81134 (operating ORV under the influence).

(viii) Section 81135 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.81135 (operating ORV while visibly impaired).

(ix) Section 82127 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.82127 (operating a snowmobile under the influence).

(x) Part 74 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461 (controlled substance violation).

(xi) Section 353 of the railroad code of 1993, 1993 PA 354, MCL 462.353 (operating locomotive under the influence), punishable under subsection (3) of that section.

(xii) Section 167 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.167 (disorderly person).

(xiii) Section 174 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.174 (embezzlement).

(xiv) Section 218 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.218 (false pretenses with intent to defraud).

(xv) Section 356 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.356 (larceny).

(xvi) Section 356d of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.356d (second degree retail fraud).

(xvii) Section 359 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.359 (larceny-vacant building).

(xviii) Section 362 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.362 (larceny by conversion).

(xix) Section 362a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.362a (larceny-defrauding lessor).

(xx) Section 377a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.377a (malicious destruction of property).

(xxi) Section 380 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.380 (malicious destruction of real property).

(xxii) Section 535 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.535 (receiving stolen property).

(xxiii) Section 540e of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.540e (malicious use of telephones).

Bronson

 

[Bubba72]

Bronson.....

I've read that list backyards forwards and right side up and up side down and my misdimeanor isn't and wasn't on that list then and when i tried i told the lady at the table at the review board that my misdimeanor wasn't on that list that would possibly disqualify me for a cpl her response was this "It's a misdimeanor and we can't give it to you" i stated again that my misdimeanor wasn't on there and she looked at me like a was being a smarta** and then a county sherrif came over asked if there was i problem and i said no and thank you for your time. Again I have NOTHING other than that misdimeanor on my record, not even a speeding ticket but they were giving out permits to ppl like they were candy who had past DUI's and other things on their record and they also brought letters in from their church or other community organizations that that were part of, talk about getting REALLY upset....I couldn't believe it!!

 

[griffin]

(xxvii) Section 228 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.228 (failure to have a pistol inspected).

Huh?

 

[Phil McCracken]

(xxvii) Section 228 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.228 (failure to have a pistol inspected).

Huh?

Until recently, Michigan did not register pistols. In fact, it was unlawful to maintain any registration records. Instead, there was a safety inspection conducted by the local police agency. The inspection report of the pistol was sent to the MSP for record keeping. That system was replaced by the current pistol registration procedure where by you submit your pistol sales record to the local agency without bringing the pistol to them for safety inspection.

 

[griffin]

I know. What I meant was, why is this still in law since we don't do safety inspections any more?

 

[Phil McCracken]

I know. What I meant was, why is this still in law since we don't do safety inspections any more?

Sorry, I wasn't able to ascertain what you meant by the "Huh?" I was just trying to respond to what appeared to be some confusion on your part as to what the cited statute meant.

Because 8 years hasn't gone by yet. And any convictions are still within that time frame. I know that they were still being conducted a short ago as 2007. Maybe even sooner than that.

 

[DrTodd]

I wasn't aware of CC classes when I got my CCW.

Depended entirely on what the county sheriff decided...some did have classes, some put restrictions where and when it could be used, etc.

 

[stainless1911]

to someone even turning around at night and if the headlights shine into a field where deer are present it's illegal

If I got a ticket for that, I'd be out with a high powered lazer for retaliation.