Oral argument in Goldberg v. Glastonbury this Friday

[Rich B]

This sounds awfully familiar.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...ive-911-caller-told-police-there-s-no-problem

 

[Leverdude]

What good is legislation if the police enforce their own laws?

How about legislation making violation of civil rights by LEO, including rkba, a criminal offense with mandatory sentencing? In none of the cases I'v been made aware of here or in other places have LEO been held accountable. Thats inexcusable. Legislation can be used to reign in the cops too. I personally feel that false arrests & things of that nature should be grounds for immediate termination.

I dont think the majority of police are intentionally arresting people who are not breaking the law. I think they, just like we, missunderstood the law regarding carry permits and are doing what they have been trained to do.
Lacking repercussions of some sort theres no real incentive for our police to think things should change.

IMO a permit for OC is ridiculous, as is calling what we have here in CT a carry permit at all. I'm not sure what the original intent was but I'd bet that when they first passed a permit law it was not required for purchase or simple transportation outside the home. It was simply to carry one in public & despite the rhetoric here concealed carry in developed areas has been the norm for a looong time, Well over 100 years and likely longer.
Like it or not an exposed handgun in urban areas has not been socially acceptable for a long time. Not necessarily illegal, just uncommon & cause for comment or concern. People carried concealed a long time before it was ever required anywhere. I'v said it before but I guess it bears repeating. Even in states where its clearly legal to OC its almost non existent outside of hunting seasons or firearm related events. I spend alot of time in NH & VT where its legal & everyone knows it but can count on one hand the times I'v seen someone OCing.
Its not unreasonable to assume our permits are concealed carry permits, we are the only state I'm aware of that allows OC & requires a permit for it. Thats needs to be changed if for no other reason than requiring a permit for ALL carry is an obvious blatant violation of CT's & the federal constitution.

We need to support our law abiding citizens in the court rooms.

Do you mean financially?
I think it better to have clear common sense laws that prevent law abiding people ending up in court in the first place.
It'd be nice to help financially, but then we get back to, which cases & who to support. Obviously no group could help everyone.

The mess we are in I think is largely due to the gun owning public. Most people are not inclined to make waves until something happens to them.

 

[Edward Peruta]

Let's see what they're up to this time

In previous years I have been able to obtain the proposed legislation originating in the Department of Public Safety.

Let's see what they're up to this time.

I sent the following FOI request via email this morning.

From: Edward Peruta [mailto:edperuta@amcable.tv]
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:34 AM
To: Seth.Mancini@po.state.ct.us; Hatfield, Thomas
Subject: Foi Request for prompt access to public records

Seth and Tom,

It’s that time of year again.

I am requesting prompt access to ALL records related to proposals suggested, being considered or submitted from The Department of Public Safety for the 2011 legislative session.

This request is similar to requests made in previous years.

The information is requested in electronic format via email or on a single CD.

Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this request.

Ed Peruta

I don't believe that our issues will be resolved in the legislature.

As for donation to the current legal issues, that is something that needs to be addressed and evaluated.

I personally believe that donating to a single case is not the way to go.

We should be financially supporting ALL cases related to the issues we face

 

[Lenny Benedetto]

I can hardly wait to see how many days I will be spending up at the LOB next year!

 

[Rich B]

How about legislation making violation of civil rights by LEO, including rkba, a criminal offense with mandatory sentencing? In none of the cases I'v been made aware of here or in other places have LEO been held accountable. Thats inexcusable. Legislation can be used to reign in the cops too. I personally feel that false arrests & things of that nature should be grounds for immediate termination.

I can't disagree there, but I also don't see anyone actually working on this.

I dont think the majority of police are intentionally arresting people who are not breaking the law. I think they, just like we, missunderstood the law regarding carry permits and are doing what they have been trained to do.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. Try this excuse in court sometime.

Lacking repercussions of some sort theres no real incentive for our police to think things should change.

That is why we should not be hesitating to take the only appropriate actions we have available to us. We need to hit them hard in the civil courts every time they violate someone's rights.

IMO a permit for OC is ridiculous

I agree, but I would add a permit for CC to be just as ridiculous.

Like it or not an exposed handgun in urban areas has not been socially acceptable for a long time. Not necessarily illegal, just uncommon & cause for comment or concern.

Comment and concern can be fixed pretty easily. Police violating the laws they swore to uphold is much worse.

Even in states where its clearly legal to OC its almost non existent outside of hunting seasons or firearm related events. I spend alot of time in NH & VT where its legal & everyone knows it but can count on one hand the times I'v seen someone OCing.

I don't see the relevance of this statement. Maybe half (maybe more, maybe less) of the public owns a firearm. A small percentage of those people carry. An even smaller percentage of those people carry everyday. An even smaller percentage of those people OC.

What is your point? This country's laws are not dictated by majority opinion or practice.

Its not unreasonable to assume our permits are concealed carry permits, we are the only state I'm aware of that allows OC & requires a permit for it.

They are not concealed carry permits. Not in any way, shape or form.

Thats needs to be changed if for no other reason than requiring a permit for ALL carry is an obvious blatant violation of CT's & the federal constitution.

Requiring any permit for any carry of a firearm is an obvious and blatant violation of common sense.

Do you mean financially?

If that is what is needed. I am watching Wisconsin Carry's latest incident and how they handle things and it is in sharp contrast to what we are (or aren't) doing here. They are having rallies, raising money, having demonstrations, going on the news, staging debates, writing letters and overall using their energy for something positive.

I think it better to have clear common sense laws that prevent law abiding people ending up in court in the first place.

I would like to have a million dollars and live on a super yacht. Either show us how or it is just wishful thinking.

It'd be nice to help financially, but then we get back to, which cases & who to support. Obviously no group could help everyone.

I don't understand your reasoning. No one is advocating defending everyone with a firearms charge. What is wrong with taking the small set of cases we know about that would further our cause and making sure they are taken as far as possible? Doing this as a group, if winning cases are fought and won, those costs could be recovered and possibly extra funding in addition.

The mess we are in I think is largely due to the gun owning public. Most people are not inclined to make waves until something happens to them.

But look at us 'activists'. How many of us are taking active roles in any of the current court issues right now besides simply watching for news from Ed Peruta?

How can we expect to get people in this state riled up when we still have a bunch of people on the opencarry.org forum arguing that we should not open carry for fear of making waves?

 

[Leverdude]

I can't disagree there, but I also don't see anyone actually working on this.

Maybe e need to push the idea to our legislature more. When I talk to my reps about these things it sure seems like nobody else feels the same way or if they do they dont make themselves heard.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. Try this excuse in court sometime.

I'm not saying it is. But thered be less ignorance if there were repurcussions when they broke the law. Me & you end up in court as defendants, not the police.

That is why we should not be hesitating to take the only appropriate actions we have available to us. We need to hit them hard in the civil courts every time they violate someone's rights.

Civil court is great. Except that they will have the backing of the police unions & other funding options we likely cannot compete with. I also wonder why it should be a civil issue & not a criminal one.

Take your case for example. Had a group of permit holding citizens surrounded you, disarmed & detained you against your will ect it wouldn't be a civil issue but a criminal one.

As long as WE are treating the police special they will keep thinking they are.

I agree, but I would add a permit for CC to be just as ridiculous.

I think we likely agree with each other more than either of us realize. Computers make for lousy conversation tools.

IMHO if you can own a gun you should be able to carry it or do whatever with it you choose, so long as its not to commit a REAL crime.

Comment and concern can be fixed pretty easily. Police violating the laws they swore to uphold is much worse.[quote/]

Agreed, my only point in that comment was to bring up the fact that social opinion will not likely be on our side in CT and, as I'v said before, I think it real likely that revision of our carry permit law will see CC mandated initially.

I don't see the relevance of this statement. Maybe half (maybe more, maybe less) of the public owns a firearm. A small percentage of those people carry. An even smaller percentage of those people carry everyday. An even smaller percentage of those people OC.

What is your point? This country's laws are not dictated by majority opinion or practice.

My point is that I doubt OC will ever be accepted to the point that nobody bothers you. This countries laws are certainly dictated by majority opinion. Thats how a democracy works.
If you put out a poll tomorrow in CT asking if OC should be allowed with no restrictions I thin k you'll find that most think it absurd. Since some of those people vote & talk to legislators they effect our laws.

If there was a vote tomorrow & the majority of CT was aware that OC is legal with a permit I think we'd see it changed for the worse.

They are not concealed carry permits. Not in any way, shape or form.

I didn't say they were. I said its not unreasonable for a person to think they are. We ALL though they were until pretty recently.

Requiring any permit for any carry of a firearm is an obvious and blatant violation of common sense.

Thats debatable, whats not debatable is its a violation of the Second Amendment.

If that is what is needed. I am watching Wisconsin Carry's latest incident and how they handle things and it is in sharp contrast to what we are (or aren't) doing here. They are having rallies, raising money, having demonstrations, going on the news, staging debates, writing letters and overall using their energy for something positive.

Wisconsin's issues are different in many ways than ours. Theres no question OC is legal there & no permit is required for it. Plus they havent been invaded by liberals to the degree CT has.
Its just my opinion but as long as you need a permit for something that thing is not a right & is subject to the will of the entity issueing the permit. In our case our permits regulations are subject to the will of the legislature who in turn are answerable to the people who in most cases will not support OC.

I would like to have a million dollars and live on a super yacht. Either show us how or it is just wishful thinking.

Keep pressure on the elected officials obviously, try to get good ones elected etc, you already know this stuff.

I don't understand your reasoning. No one is advocating defending everyone with a firearms charge. What is wrong with taking the small set of cases we know about that would further our cause and making sure they are taken as far as possible? Doing this as a group, if winning cases are fought and won, those costs could be recovered and possibly extra funding in addition.

Ok, organize it. I'll donate what I can.

But look at us 'activists'. How many of us are taking active roles in any of the current court issues right now besides simply watching for news from Ed Peruta?

How many of us can? I know I cant, beyond writing & calling my reps, senators, local police execs etc.

As I said, set up a fund & I'll donate a couple hundred $.

How can we expect to get people in this state riled up when we still have a bunch of people on the opencarry.org forum arguing that we should not open carry for fear of making waves?

Where we disagree I think is that you seem focused entirely on OC being legal as it is now with a permit. I think our current carry laws are ridiculous & difficult to both enforce or understand. Its understandable for people not to want to get arrested just to prove a point and its understandable for someone to be of the opinion that in CT simply making people aware its legal WITH A PERMIT will likely not have the desired effect.

I wish it were different but the majority of the people I talk to about guns, carrying them etc dont sound like they like the idea of OC. It surely doesn't bother me & if I had my way would be protected by law.

 

[Rich B]

My point is that I doubt OC will ever be accepted to the point that nobody bothers you.

You say this over and over, but reality is not on your side. I OC all over the place and I have only had one negative incident by one rogue police department.

The majority of people are either positive about OC or don't notice/care.

This countries laws are certainly dictated by majority opinion. Thats how a democracy works.

Luckily this country is not a democracy, it is a republic. Majority opinion does not trump the bill of rights and it does not override our laws. Even if the majority of people where you are don't agree with you or what you are doing, if there is no law against it, their opinion really means nothing.

If you put out a poll tomorrow in CT asking if OC should be allowed with no restrictions I thin k you'll find that most think it absurd. Since some of those people vote & talk to legislators they effect our laws.

Last poll I saw about OC was for it. Granted it was not asking anything about permits, but that is beside the point. Our permits are a joke and I am confident they will be eliminated someday; not through popular opinion, but rather through careful examination of law.

If there was a vote tomorrow & the majority of CT was aware that OC is legal with a permit I think we'd see it changed for the worse.

I don't think that is an objective statement that you can qualify, nor does it matter since this is not how the law works.

Wisconsin's issues are different in many ways than ours. Theres no question OC is legal there & no permit is required for it. Plus they havent been invaded by liberals to the degree CT has.

There is no question of the legality of OC here either. If there was, I wouldn't be OCing, and I wouldn't have had my BoP charges changed immediately and my DO case dismissed immediately.

Its just my opinion but as long as you need a permit for something that thing is not a right & is subject to the will of the entity issueing the permit. In our case our permits regulations are subject to the will of the legislature who in turn are answerable to the people who in most cases will not support OC.

That is just your opinion, and it is wrong. No matter what permit exists, our laws are clearly defined. The government and police have to abide by those laws, and it is our job to make sure they do.

Keep pressure on the elected officials obviously, try to get good ones elected etc, you already know this stuff.

This is all fine and good, but to think it will fix anything is naive. Nobody running for office at the moment is going to walk into office and change things immediately for us. They may be a little more willing to work with us, but that is all just temporary until the next election.

Where we will win permanent and lasting victories is in the courtrooms. That is how the OC and 2A (and 4A) rights victories all over the state are being won.

Ok, organize it. I'll donate what I can.

What do you think I am working on? I am not just talking to hear myself talk.

How many of us can? I know I cant, beyond writing & calling my reps, senators, local police execs etc.

As I said, set up a fund & I'll donate a couple hundred $.

Funding is great but we need to work on the rest. We are all outraged about the judge who resided over the Goldberg case and who obviously was biased and incapable of performing his job. He is a state official. He works for us. So why are we not getting organized and doing what we can do to make him regret his words and actions? Lets get this all over the news, lets put it out there.

Where we disagree I think is that you seem focused entirely on OC being legal as it is now with a permit. I think our current carry laws are ridiculous & difficult to both enforce or understand.

I see no ambiguity in how the law is written, only in how the LEOs are trained and how they understand the law. That is an education and training issue, not a legislative issue.

Its understandable for people not to want to get arrested just to prove a point and its understandable for someone to be of the opinion that in CT simply making people aware its legal WITH A PERMIT will likely not have the desired effect.

Entirely subjective.

I wish it were different but the majority of the people I talk to about guns, carrying them etc dont sound like they like the idea of OC. It surely doesn't bother me & if I had my way would be protected by law.

No one cares whether they like it or not. As long as they respect the right and don't impede anyone's rights, that is all that matters.