ordered my brand new....

[Grapeshot]

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Loneviking wrote:

However, if I draw with a bent/curved finger, especially if while twisting my hips forward as if turning away from a weapon or to run for cover, it was quite easy for my finger to end up in the trigger guard.

And you don't call that a design flaw? If your hiney isn't in motion when going into action in a gunfight you are probably going to be shot. You have to be able to draw safely when on the run.

No.

He very clearly stated, "I have been consistently trained to draw with my index finger pointed straight and that it is a VERY good idea to continue training in this manner. Furthermore, drawing with a bent finger from ANY holster is a recipe for ending up with your finger inside the trigger guard and on a "snatch" draw a good way to shoot yourself. Given my little bit of testing here, I am inclined to think that such NDs with Serpas are related to improper indexing of the booger hook from the beginning of the draw rather than an inherent design flaw."

Please reread complete post by deepdiver

Yata hey

 

[Jim675]

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And that my friends is why I continue to pay the exorbitant membership dues for this site.

 

[Loneviking]

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Yeah, sure, try it while on the run. At least three of your other fingers are going to be curled while wrapping themselves around the gun butt. The shape and position of the Serpa is such that you'll have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending your finger. If you are standing still and drawing straight up--fine, but that isn't real life.

 

[deepdiver]

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Loneviking wrote:

Yeah, sure, try it while on the run. At least three of your other fingers are going to be curled while wrapping themselves around the gun butt. The shape and position of the Serpa is such that you'll have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending your finger. If you are standing still and drawing straight up--fine, but that isn't real life.

*shrug* As I concluded earlier, the Serpa, like any other holster, isn't for everyone. I have drawn on the move many times practicing cold and hot without issue. I find that the shape and position of the Serpa is such that it encourages me to keep my finger straight and properly indexed as it is designed to do. I found it especially helpful in learning the muscle memory of a straight finger draw when I got back into firearms a few years ago and now I draw in that manner with any holster and any sidearm without thinking about it.

IMO, if that is not the case for an individual, that person should be carrying with a different holster. In other words, I think the above sentence should have read: "The shape and position of the Serpa is such that I have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending my finger." We all have preferences with firearms and equipment and can disagree as to our favorites and discuss why.

 

[Elkad]

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And all this discussion (and some testing) is why I posted what I did, including the mildly inflammatory tone.

The possibility does exist. Yes, training will help you avoid it.

With a classic thumb-break holster, you'd still index, but you don't need that inward pressure anywhere. Even with a poor draw under stress, your index finger should still be braced extended, not pressing inward. Other retention holsters direct the force away from the trigger (granted, making the release and draw more awkward)

With the trigger finger doing the releasing on the Serpa, you are applying pressure very close to where you don't want to be. Get your finger curved, or just have short fingers that don't reach past the guard, or draw while moving, all while under stress, and the potential to inadvertently get your "boogerhook on the bang switch" goes way up.

There is a lot of individual decision here. Length of fingers, angle/position of holster, training level, type of weapon, etc. All impact it.

If you have long fingers and carry a 1911 (2 external safeties, one of which you shouldn't be messing with till the weapon is swinging to the target(or even later)), you probably have some leeway.

Stubby fingers with a squirtgun triggered weapon (Glock) with no external safeties would likely lean more towards the danger side.

Traditional da/sa weapons are probably somewhere in the middle.

I just want people to be aware of the potential dangers. Every holster has shortcomings in some area. Shooting yourself in the femoral artery is quite likely lethal. Use it if you want, but at least get the training barrel, airsoft clone, or snapcaps out and test the hell out of it yourself. With a coat. With someone pulling on your purse straps. With your seatbelt on. While dragging a child (or sack of cement to simulate) towards cover. Etc..

deepdiver tested his. Now he knows how the issue applies to himself, and can do some extra drill to avoid it (or select a different holster). My goal is for all of you do the same.

 

[deepdiver]

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I think everyone should be testing/practicing with every holster they own to see how it draws from different body positions or during movement. I did want to experiment to try to understand the issues being discussed here and in the links posted. I had never previously encountered this issue as I have trained myself, as re-taught by professional trainers, through thousands of draws to always draw with a straight index finger.

Elkad, I think your comments about gun/fingers combinations and risk are pretty right on. My hands/fingers are large enough that with my index finger straight it sticks out past the front of the trigger guard with both of my primary sidearms. That doesn't mean that I couldn't inadvertently get it inside the trigger guard in a panicked draw, however, the risk is somewhat diminished. Furthermore, it was my XD with which I had my simulated ND, not the SA/DA Sig as you suggested. Also, I think what happened with the simulated ND as I have tried to recreate it this morning is that I got my hand twisted to the left a bit on my draw thereby moving my index finger further back than usual and allowing it to easily slide into the trigger guard. Such a mistake could happen with any holster and one that I am glad to be aware of so that I can train to avoid it. It also helps me understand how someone with smaller hands/shorter fingers might more easily get them inside a trigger guard, especially in a high stress situation.

The discussion on this thread has certainly led me to some issues which I need to further investigate and train. While the Serpas don't pose an inherent issue for me and I still very much like them, I certainly have a better understanding of how they could be problematic for some people and I will be more cautious in how I recommend them to others in the future.