OT: Park Ranger Shot

[Metalhead47]

How did I make any excuses for this guy? I didn't make any excuses for him.

Yes, he shot some people in Skyway, but the rangers didn't know that. As far as they knew, he was just any other person visiting the park. Was my example not clear enough? Like when someone open carrying gets stopped for open carrying. RAS. The rangers had no RAS.

Do not mistake my Liberitarian views for being callous to the loss of this ranger (mother, wife...) Individual rights are most important. Individual responsibility goes along with that.

(And don't "dude" me)

I dude everyone

And yes, I say you are making excuses for him when you say "If only the park rangers would have done something completely unrealistic and unlikely under the current legal paradigm, this tragedy would not have happened. SO it's their own fault." Sounds and awful lot like you're blaming the victim here.

Yes, individual rights are most important. But the simple fact of the current reality is, it's the park rangers and other staff who have to go dig these morons out when they skid off the road, then babysit them while waiting for the tow truck. That costs the park money, so I don't find it entirely unreasonable to require and check for chains.

Now, if there was something akin to AZ's "stupid motorist law" that said "if you end up in a snowy ditch because you're too dumb to carry chains and/or learn how to operate a vehicle in the snow, you bear the entire financial responsibility for your extraction," I might think differently.

However, reality is what it is, and the rangers were just doing their jobs and following lawful orders/instructions. I'm sure they weren't thrilled about the duty either. So don't go blaming them for the actions of a madman.

 

[Trigger Dr]

This has gotten way off topic.

So, he refused to stop at a "safety checkpoint". I hate to say it, but, maybe if the rangers hadn't been so zealous in chasing down someone who didn't want to stop at an illegal checkpoint, they wouldn't have been fired upon. Maybe they should have just let him go.

Say you come to a checkpoint like this... "Why am I being detained?"
"We need to make sure you have chains on and your vehicle is safe to go further up the mountain.".


" It's none of your business, I will take responsibility for my own welfare, and unless you have a warrant, I'll be going on."


I see a lot of parallels here with what some of us have self with while open carrying. Sure the guy was a criminal, but the rangers didn't know that. If they would have followed the Constitution and not chased him down, a tragedy would have not happened.

Jeff, Why don't you apply this same logic to the zip tie at WAC? (answer) Because it is faulty.

 

[BigDave]

It was so quiet for a period of time and now extremism in this threads have returned and come bubbling to the top of the mess.

I have no issues on how law enforcement handled this situation from having a check point to check for tires and or chains as they do for any other pass in Washington State.
Once a person blows through a check point is a violation of law and when the Park Ranger put a road block up to stop him, she was legal in doing so and in NO WAY JUSTIFIES his actions as some seem to support here. For those who want to cry there is no RAS, have no clue nor all the information leading up to and during the incident.

While somethings are taken as fact with different news articles and others are ignored but we have those that climb on that band wagon with their arm chair quarterbacking and 3 sheets to the wind.
By law enforcement gathering the visitors in a secure area and then determining if there were accomplishes or even the perp in this situation is not out of the question nor the issue of having them stay at a secure area until they can ensure their safe evacuation is looking out for the public. I am sure if someone insisted in leaving they could have at their own peril when there is known a nut case is out there with a rifle and willing to kill and has killed minutes before.

Granted there are good and bad in our military but to attach a negative connotation to those who served are bad police officers is ridiculous and just plain ignorant.

Something to chew on, it seems everyone on this band wagon to hate on law enforcement has not spent one day serving their country.

 

[decklin]

It was so quiet for a period of time and now extremism in this threads have returned and come bubbling to the top of the mess.

I have no issues on how law enforcement handled this situation from having a check point to check for tires and or chains as they do for any other pass in Washington State.
Once a person blows through a check point is a violation of law and when the Park Ranger put a road block up to stop him, she was legal in doing so and in NO WAY JUSTIFIES his actions as some seem to support here. For those who want to cry there is no RAS, have no clue nor all the information leading up to and during the incident.

While somethings are taken as fact with different news articles and others are ignored but we have those that climb on that band wagon with their arm chair quarterbacking and 3 sheets to the wind.
By law enforcement gathering the visitors in a secure area and then determining if there were accomplishes or even the perp in this situation is not out of the question nor the issue of having them stay at a secure area until they can ensure their safe evacuation is looking out for the public. I am sure if someone insisted in leaving they could have at their own peril when there is known a nut case is out there with a rifle and willing to kill and has killed minutes before.

Granted there are good and bad in our military but to attach a negative connotation to those who served are bad police officers is ridiculous and just plain ignorant.

Something to chew on, it seems everyone on this band wagon to hate on law enforcement has not spent one day serving their country.

You just said everything I was trying to and you did it eloquently.

 

[SpyderTattoo]

Ah, the zip tie problem... Well, the difference there is, the government (park rangers setting up check points) vs a private organization (WAC, zip-tieing weapons). Private property trumps.


The park rangers were not looking for any suspects of any kind. They had a tire-chain checkpoint set up. They weren't looking for anyone in particular.

Again, I'm not blaming them for the actions of a madman. What he did is on him (or was, since he was found dead). But more tragedy could have been avoided. I realize my views are more, "In a perfect Liberatairian world" kind of thought process, but just think about how going to a more Constitutional government would have made this different.

 

[Grapeshot]

Ah, the zip tie problem... Well, the difference there is, the government (park rangers setting up check points) vs a private organization (WAC, zip-tieing weapons). Private property trumps.


The park rangers were not looking for any suspects of any kind. They had a tire-chain checkpoint set up. They weren't looking for anyone in particular.

Again, I'm not blaming them for the actions of a madman. What he did is on him (or was, since he was found dead). But more tragedy could have been avoided. I realize my views are more, "In a perfect Liberatairian world" kind of thought process, but just think about how going to a more Constitutional government would have made this different.

This thread is becoming more suitable for General Discussion or the Social Lounge - see nothing relating to OC here.

 

[SpyderTattoo]

+1 I was going to post this next. Actually, the entire thread has no business in this forum and should have been posted in the general forum origonally.

 

[macnorman]

Something to chew on, it seems everyone on this band wagon to hate on law enforcement has not spent one day serving their country.

Well said.......

 

[Citizen]

SNIP Something to chew on, it seems everyone on this band wagon to hate on law enforcement has not spent one day serving their country.

Oh, I see our hyperbolic reckless exaggerator is back.

Who exactly is "hating" on LE? And since when is viewing government through a strict pro-liberty lens "hate"?

Errors about facts are not hate.

And, for the record, I have served. Some of the most pro-liberty/suspicious of government people on this forum have served.

 

[BigDave]

Oh, I see our hyperbolic reckless exaggerator is back.
Who exactly is "hating" on LE? And since when is viewing government through a strict pro-liberty lens "hate"?
Errors about facts are not hate.
And, for the record, I have served. Some of the most pro-liberty/suspicious of government people on this forum have served.

And that is just it, we do not have the facts, just writer speculation to get his/story to the paper and then the twist and turns of the editors and then the Monday Night Quarter Backs that last played in pee wee leagues.
There are reckless exaggerators here they have been posting all along.

So Citizen how would you step up to the plate here being faced a couple of hundred citizens stretch out over Mt Rainier, One Officer Dead and a man out in the woods armed and shooting at arriving law enforcement and while this is going on you find out he just shot up a party or what 4 or people the previous night. Weathers conditions being poor and a vast area to cover to find this threat, stop it all while seeking out citizens that do not know what is going on and to protect them.
Come on the time is ticking you do not know where he is or headed or if there are others he has encountered already and the night coming upon you soon with very few officers here but backup on the way, tell us what would you do and would it compare to what was done.
Now you also have a group of people that are not known to you and it could be possible that someone was acting with him and could be there among the group as well, how to protect the others or do you just waiting until several others are killed?

Time to strap on those boots along with some to put on their big girl panties on and take enough equipment to protect yourself and others and to survive what you might encounter not to say he might be perched and awaiting for you to step out around that tree or mound of dirt.

The actions the Officers took in this incident do so for those that were in danger not to try and go on a fishing trip to trip someone up into charges being filed on them, for crying out loud this is one of the worse demonstrations by members of paranoia and me me me attitudes to go around and yelling RAS RAS RAS, well guess what you might not know what the RAS until your attorney meets your but in jail where you can be told.
Another comment was made about not being able to be armed in the center as it is illegal, yes that is correct and if I and my grandchildren and family members were around I would choose to be there with the 6 or 7 officers defending the area and if I had to leave my weapon secured in my vehicle so be it, but I would be discussing with them about the law of necessity where it would be legal to be armed in the facility during this period of time. But there are those here who feel they would do such a better job then the trained officers is just foolish and likely would create a problem that could cost themselves and others their life for being stupid.

 

[Citizen]

So, in amongst that post text, did you somewhere say you would knock off the hyperbolic exaggeration about users "hating" on cops?

 

[Jim675]

SNIP: Something to chew on, it seems everyone on this band wagon to hate on law enforcement has not spent one day serving their country.

You're incorrect about both the hate and the service.

I do not hate LE. I do think the institution is demonstrably more dangerous to innocent US citizens today than in the past. Militarization is one of several reasons for this.

I was a senior NCO in the US Army.

Depending on where I was in the park I would not have been happy driving further in "for my safety". I have no problem with them offering that as an option for those so inclined.

I would not be upset if they wanted to shine a light on me and my passengers as I exited the park. They could even look in the trunk for long enough to verify no human beings were in there.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I find it a disturbing view point that being in the military or being a cop or public servant living off tax payers dollars is the only acceptable means of "serving" our country.

I think capitalists and entrepreneurs and those going about their daily lives do more service to our country especially since their money is taking by threat of violence to provide for all the other "services".

 

[Metalhead47]

I find it a disturbing view point that being in the military or being a cop or public servant living off tax payers dollars is the only acceptable means of "serving" our country.

I think capitalists and entrepreneurs and those going about their daily lives do more service to our country especially since their money is taking by threat of violence to provide for all the other "services".

Where do you get that that's the only "acceptable" means of serving?

Capitalists & entrepreneurs, after all, are primarily out to serve THEMSELVES, and there's nothing wrong with that. Any service towards the nation its self is really just a byproduct, whereas the military and police (at least IN THEORY) serve their nation & communities directly, and take oaths to that effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SFCRetired]

1. Last I heard, the guy was found dead of exposure. You don't go running around in a place like that in just jeans and T-shirt.
2. Much was made of the fact that he had been stationed on a base where the suicide/domestic violence rate was astronomical (as compared to other bases)
3. This from a retired senior NCO, U.S.Army: I had soldiers (and some officers) that I would not have trusted with a water pistol. This guy, from what I have read, falls in that category.
4. As far as the majority of LEOs having a college education; so what? I've had Army officers come to where I was stationed for Basic Officer's Course who had just graduated from ROTC and with a bachelor's degree. We won't talk about how many failed the Adult Basic Skills Education Test. We will talk about the fact that those who failed could not read the English language, could not write a coherent sentence in English, and could not do simple arithmetic.
5. Again, concerning college degrees, I had a junior (to me) NCO try to write me a counseling statement. It began with the words, "You is a good NCO." This individual had three baccalaureate degrees!!!!

Next to Last: a point almost everyone of us here recognizes: No amount of laws or signs is going to keep a criminal or, as in this case, a madman from using a firearm to carry out a crime.

Last: My heartfelt condolences to the family of the ranger who was killed.

 

[Grapeshot]

1. Last I heard, the guy was found dead of exposure. You don't go running around in a place like that in just jeans and T-shirt.

2. Much was made of the fact that he had been stationed on a base where the suicide/domestic violence rate was astronomical (as compared to other bases)

3. This from a retired senior NCO, U.S.Army: I had soldiers (and some officers) that I would not have trusted with a water pistol. This guy, from what I have read, falls in that category.

4. As far as the majority of LEOs having a college education; so what? I've had Army officers come to where I was stationed for Basic Officer's Course who had just graduated from ROTC and with a bachelor's degree. We won't talk about how many failed the Adult Basic Skills Education Test. We will talk about the fact that those who failed could not read the English language, could not write a coherent sentence in English, and could not do simple arithmetic.

5. Again, concerning college degrees, I had a junior (to me) NCO try to write me a counseling statement. It began with the words, "You is a good NCO." This individual had three baccalaureate degrees!!!!

Next to Last: a point almost everyone of us here recognizes: No amount of laws or signs is going to keep a criminal or, as in this case, a madman from using a firearm to carry out a crime.

Last: My heartfelt condolences to the family of the ranger who was killed.

+1 on all points.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Where do you get that that's the only "acceptable" means of serving?

Capitalists & entrepreneurs, after all, are primarily out to serve THEMSELVES, and there's nothing wrong with that. Any service towards the nation its self is really just a byproduct, whereas the military and police (at least IN THEORY) serve their nation & communities directly, and take oaths to that effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

By statements from some denouncing others remarks because they haven't "served" their country. And they are referring to military service. Like somehow military personal or police are magically granted more insight because they have "served".

Yep "in theory" . Because they more and often than not are serving political powers and interests.

I respect our veterans and those who fought they do a dirty job and often disagree with the job they are doing and they do it any way. I disdain those who feel it makes them superior somehow to others.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

So, in amongst that post text, did you somewhere say you would knock off the hyperbolic exaggeration about users "hating" on cops?

Of course not that would mean that he would have to be open minded enough to accept the fact that non criminals and haters can be dissatisfied with how his beloved Law Enforcement system is run.

 

[decklin]

I think the point was missed when I said most law enforcement have degrees. It came up because one of the posters mentioned the military mentality, etc. I was mentioning that most cops were never in the military.
And for SFCRetired, I never said a degree means you are intelligent. I had to obey plenty of officers that were on some level below stupid.
For the poster mentioning how everyone in the military goes through basic, I think you over estimate the degree of training they receive. I had to babysit a 42a for a while that had transfered in from the Navy. I started cleaning my M4 and instructed him to do the same. He just stared at me. As it turns out he didn't know how to disassemble his weapon. I also had to teach him to shoot since in the Navy he only fired three rounds. Going to Basic Training or serving does not make you a soldier.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

Here's one reason I don't get worked up over a bad guy shooting an park ranger. The average park worker is in more danger driving to and from work, than they are during the time they spend at work. Yet I don't hear calls to ban alcohol, or villainize automobiles.

http://today.seattletimes.com/2012/02/park-ranger-killed-near-seabeck-by-possibly-drunk-driver/